The Placebo Effect! (1080p, bitrates, lossless, etc) - High-Def Digest Forums
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Old 12-27-2007, 11:54 AM
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Default The Placebo Effect! (1080p, bitrates, lossless, etc)

I figured this was worthy of it's own thread, discussing. I'll basically just rip off what I and 1 or 2 others posted:

"I like to call it the "1080p effect" where people know it has better specs, so it SHOULD in theory look better. Therefore they believe they can see differences when even experts can't most the time.

It's been stated repeatedly (especially on Cnet) that unless you're screen is over 50" in size, or you sit within 2-3 feet of the screen, that the difference between 1080i and 1080p is not noticable. However they sell 32", 37" and 42" 1080p televisions at a premium price, and owners swear up and down they can see a difference (when it's been proven that it's indistinguishable.) It's like a placebo (an expensive placebo)

I think the same probably happens w/ HDM when someone says "oh this movie has a higher bit rate" or "this movie has lossless and this one doesnt", and because of that spec (much like 1080P), they convince themselves they personally can see/hear a difference.

I mean there's no way to prove this other then looking at objective 3rd party reviewers, but most fanboys ignore stuff like that for their own opinion which they post as fact."


Rob.D also had a good point with:

"Study after study has shown that if you tell people something is there a large portion of people will see it.

Classic example, colour a bake mix chocolate brown, add NO FLAVOUR...many people will taste chocolate. Some won't, I don't, I taste nothing but flour.

1080p, studies show that only on larger screens does it make a difference, but you'll have people with 32 inch screens raving about it.

That kid on youtube, the ps3 fanboi who goes on and on and on about the ps3 graphics in 1080p....while using a CRT system.

Then there is the whole link between Iraq and 911...."


Roadlizard referred to it as "self-fulfilling justification":

"1080p eh-hem "benefits" can only be *seen* by those that paid too much for a 1080p display. Its called "self-fulfilling justification" and we ALL have done it before with a product we have purchased."





So after trying to use logic/reason, aren't these highly plausible for some of the "expert" opinions based on 1st hand accounts on this site?
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Old 12-27-2007, 12:04 PM
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So which television do you actually own and what HiDef Player
to go with it?
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Old 12-27-2007, 12:07 PM
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I own a cheapie 42" Vizio LCD which is 720p/1080i.

I compared it in stores to 1080p, read info, and realized for the size and distance I'd be from my tv, 1080p was a waste of $

Now I know I'm not getting the best color representation w/ a value set compared to top of the line Sony/Sharp/Panasonic tvs, but since I don't have one in my living room right next to the vizio to make it look bad, I dont notice anything to complain about and didn't hafta spend another $1000

For HDM, I had the 360 add on but ditched it cuz I was gonna get a stand alone, but now I may just wait and get a PS3 down the road n hold off on HD DVD til things shake out a bit more.
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Old 12-27-2007, 12:10 PM
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And myself, I had a 32" before upgrading to the 56" I have now. I was able to see individual pixels on the 32" at 720p, so I certainly wasn't going to stay limited to 720p on anything bigger. So, I don't think a placebo has anything to do with it, when it was due to being able to see the limitations of my old set that I upgraded in the first place.
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Old 12-27-2007, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coren View Post
And myself, I had a 32" before upgrading to the 56" I have now. I was able to see individual pixels on the 32" at 720p, so I certainly wasn't going to stay limited to 720p on anything bigger. So, I don't think a placebo has anything to do with it, when it was due to being able to see the limitations of my old set that I upgraded in the first place.
I honostly don't know how scientifically you were able to see individual pixels on a 32" screen unless you put your face right up on it within inches. I mean otherwise it's impossible. I can't speak for your personal perception though so whatever. (or perhaps were watching standard def broadcasts and were displeased with the sketchy/blurry quality of the the standard def representation)
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Old 12-27-2007, 12:15 PM
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And btw, I dont mean that to dispute the original post in the first place, I'm quite certain there's a lot of truth to that. =)

I remember an episode of a Penn and Teller thing about bottled water, where they filled a bunch of bottles from a backyard hose, and told people it was water from the "mountains of Fuji, filtered by nature", and people claimed to be able to taste the differences of each type, even though it all came from municipal city water.

People are quite able to convince themselves to see differences when none exist when properly motivated. However, that's not *always* the case either...many do make their choices due to actually being able to see the difference.
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Old 12-27-2007, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by balpho View Post
I honostly don't know how scientifically you were able to see individual pixels on a 32" screen unless you put your face right up on it within inches. I mean otherwise it's impossible. I can't speak for your personal perception though so whatever. (or perhaps were watching standard def broadcasts and were displeased with the sketchy/blurry quality of the the standard def representation)
Well lets put it this way. On my old 720 PJ i had to get about three feet from the screen to see the pixels. On my new 1080 PJ (which I bought because of the insane contrast ratio between my old PJ (3000:1) and new PJ (15000:1), not because it was 1080p) I have to get about three inches from my screen to see the pixels and man are they tiny. My screen is 110"s so I imagine on a smaller display this would be even much harder to see.
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Old 12-27-2007, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coren View Post
And btw, I dont mean that to dispute the original post in the first place, I'm quite certain there's a lot of truth to that. =)

I remember an episode of a Penn and Teller thing about bottled water, where they filled a bunch of bottles from a backyard hose, and told people it was water from the "mountains of Fuji, filtered by nature", and people claimed to be able to taste the differences of each type, even though it all came from municipal city water.

People are quite able to convince themselves to see differences when none exist when properly motivated. However, that's not *always* the case either...many do make their choices due to actually being able to see the difference.
Oh yea, and I don't mean this as a all encompassing blanket statement. Just stating that I'd bet that the majority of these people's perceptions are distorted by their self-fulfilling justification.

I really am unsure how you could have seen pixels on a 32" still lol. Unless you put your faces literally inches from the screen during a high defenition program/movie? If it was standard definition you were seeing pixels on though that's completely believable but that has more to do with how well your hdtv reproduces standard defenition broadcasts, as some REALLY suck at it and make em look worse then if they were running on a SDTV.

At your current size of 56" or whatever though 1080p should be noticable to you and probably was a good choice. That's too much TV for me though lol
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Old 12-27-2007, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by balpho View Post
I honostly don't know how scientifically you were able to see individual pixels on a 32" screen unless you put your face right up on it within inches. I mean otherwise it's impossible. I can't speak for your personal perception though so whatever. (or perhaps were watching standard def broadcasts and were displeased with the sketchy/blurry quality of the the standard def representation)

Well, more specifically, I had a single dead pixel in the upper left hand corner that drove me absolutely nuts. Noone else ever seemed to notice (and now my parents have the screen when I gave it to them after upgrading, and they're unaware it exists.)

From about 3 feet back when I used it as a computer monitor, I was able to pick out the space between pixels though even.

There is a chart that shows where an average person can spot the differences in resolutions that kinda sums up the point...and I admit my vision is well enough above average that I'm kinda off that chart (but have well below average hearing as a setback).

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Old 12-27-2007, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by diggumsmax View Post
Well lets put it this way. On my old 720 PJ i had to get about three feet from the screen to see the pixels. On my new 1080 PJ (which I bought because of the insane contrast ratio between my old PJ (3000:1) and new PJ (15000:1), not because it was 1080p) I have to get about three inches from my screen to see the pixels and man are they tiny. My screen is 110"s so I imagine on a smaller display this would be even much harder to see.
Well yea with 110" it'll be much easier to see pixels, so 1080p would be the way to go. I was specifically talking about in a case where it's like a 32" screen
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