View Poll Results: Would you like to see smackdown closed, archived, and dedicated to Kosty?

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    51 77.27%
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    14 21.21%
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  1. #16
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    I was Blue through-and-through (PS3's from the start, now supplemented by a collection of Oppo players). SO I was reading Smackdown regularly to follow the progress of the war and then the initial aftermath. A few years after the war ended I finally went purple - buying a very nice Toshiba HD DVD player on the cheap - both to play HD DVD exclusives and to buy various HD DVD's at a bargain.

    Since then, I still come to check out this forum - but not to gloat or rehash old arguments anymore. Instead, these days, I look to the Smackdown forum as sort of a "general news" or "generally trending" forum. I don't want to take the time to go look at the hardware forums, and the digital download forums, and the 3D forums, etc. for news that covers any/all of the these areas. For example - one current interest of mine right now is 3D. (Personally - I hope 3D dies. Arguments for/against may make good smackdown-topics. And have.)

    I'm also interested in on-going home theater advances - what's next for the mainstream? On the video side? Ultra HD/4K tv's at a more reasonable price in a few years? Richer color spectrums from OLED or other technologies? Are OLED TVs ever going to be mainstream? In the 60-inch range? And how about the audio side? Is Dolby Atmos completely crazy to add so many speakers? How the heck are the speaker requirements for Dolby Atmos going to be adopted into a home theater? I have enough trouble finding room for all my 7.1 speakers... And if Dolby Atmos isn't going to be the next big step in home theater audio after our current crop of lossless 7.1 formats, then what is?

    My point is - I'm all for archiving this Smackdown forum, closing the door, and dedicating its memory of informed, interactive, sometimes spirited discussions to Kosty. What I would also like to see is a new forum. A general purpose, news-related, open-to-any-topic forum, but one a bit more civil than Smackdown. Smackdown was usually civil but sometimes verged off into the occasional name-calling/grandstanding - (too often I thought, even in recent years).

    Kosty will be missed. I never met him - only read his comments. I can only imagine that although he wouldn't want to be the reason the Smackdown forum closed (given his obvious interest and support in the forum), he would probably be supportive of a new, more civil forum - allowing for an open exchange of information without the playground behavior/trolling (to whatever extent that is possible on a public internet forum)....

    That's my 2-cents. Thanks for listening if you made it this far...

  2. #17
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    I think this forum should be closed, but just for the reason that there is little to no activity here, and no hope of growth further down the road. Proof is right here in the number of voters who don't want to come here and want smackdown closed. If dedication honors go to Kosty, that would be superb, but in visiting this forum once a month, I think I am the biggest contributor!!

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverado View Post
    I think this forum should be closed, but just for the reason that there is little to no activity here, and no hope of growth further down the road. Proof is right here in the number of voters who don't want to come here and want smackdown closed. If dedication honors go to Kosty, that would be superb, but in visiting this forum once a month, I think I am the biggest contributor!!
    The forum probably should have been closed within about 12 months of HD DVD being killed off. Let's face it, there is not much to really "smackdown" anymore. Blu-Ray won is looking to be a 10-15 year format.

  4. #19
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    I agree that if Smackdown was still about Blu-ray vs. HD DVD, then it should have been closed down. But it's not, and now it's called "High Definition Smackddown". Been that way for nearly 5 years now. So if anyone still thinks that HD means only Blu-ray and nothing else, than I don't know what to say. Streaming, cable/sat/OTA and digital downlands and UV all offer HD as well and for the most part, compete directly with Blu-ray for the consumer dollar. Obviously Blu-ray offers the best quality, but for the average consumer, usually convenience is more important. And the lions share of the consumer dollar that studios depend on, will come from the "average consumer" (which I would roughly define as lying within the 15% to 65% adoption curve).

    That's why Blu-ray adoption has not exploded like many people had hoped it would. Compared to DVD, it's actually a step backwards in convenience, taking longer for the disc to load, lacking a resume feature in many titles, as well as sometimes requiring a firmware update for the darn disc to play. It's just more of a hassle and then you have the higher price to go along with it.

    As a result, Blu-ray growth has slowed to a crawl, earning less than 10 percent growth for the full year 2012 (per the latest DEG report). TV on Blu-ray is relatively non existent, and DVD still releases over 5 times as much content overall (nearly 10 times as much TV on DVD). Face it, consumers are happy with upscaled DVD and now streaming and EST/UV are the new high growth formats.

    Streaming revenue in 2012 was almost as much as BLu-ray, and in 2013 will surely be higher. EST grew by nearly 35% to $811 million (it's over 1/3 as much as Blu-ray in sell through revenue now). Heck, even VOD grew by more than Blu-ray did.

    Blu-ray OD market share is still under 30%, which is less than 4% higher than it was a year ago. After 6 1/2 years, that small a market share and market share growth surely means Blu-ray is destined to be just a supplementary format to DVD, rather than a replacement. Even release rate growth on Blu-ray has slowed down to near zero. According to the DVD Release Report, with one week to go, Blu-ray has actually released fewer SKUs in 2012 than in 2011.

    There are many ways to obtain HD in the home other than Blu-ray, and using "high definition smackdown" is the theme, with growth (YoY gain/loss) and magnitude (revenue) as yardsticks for the various competing ways of obtaining HD, there is PLENTY of "smackdown" left to be said, and always will be. Kosty would have been flattered, but he would not have wanted smackdown to be closed. Home entertainment HD media performance was very interesting to Kosty, to the point of being a hobby, but he wasn't the only one interested in it.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
    I agree that if Smackdown was still about Blu-ray vs. HD DVD, then it should have been closed down. But it's not, and now it's called "High Definition Smackddown". Been that way for nearly 5 years now. So if anyone still thinks that HD means only Blu-ray and nothing else, than I don't know what to say. Streaming, cable/sat/OTA and digital downlands and UV all offer HD as well and for the most part, compete directly with Blu-ray for the consumer dollar. Obviously Blu-ray offers the best quality, but for the average consumer, usually convenience is more important. And the lions share of the consumer dollar that studios depend on, will come from the "average consumer" (which I would roughly define as lying within the 15% to 65% adoption curve).

    That's why Blu-ray adoption has not exploded like many people had hoped it would. Compared to DVD, it's actually a step backwards in convenience, taking longer for the disc to load, lacking a resume feature in many titles, as well as sometimes requiring a firmware update for the darn disc to play. It's just more of a hassle and then you have the higher price to go along with it.

    As a result, Blu-ray growth has slowed to a crawl, earning less than 10 percent growth for the full year 2012 (per the latest DEG report). TV on Blu-ray is relatively non existent, and DVD still releases over 5 times as much content overall (nearly 10 times as much TV on DVD). Face it, consumers are happy with upscaled DVD and now streaming and EST/UV are the new high growth formats.

    Streaming revenue in 2012 was almost as much as BLu-ray, and in 2013 will surely be higher. EST grew by nearly 35% to $811 million (it's over 1/3 as much as Blu-ray in sell through revenue now). Heck, even VOD grew by more than Blu-ray did.

    Blu-ray OD market share is still under 30%, which is less than 4% higher than it was a year ago. After 6 1/2 years, that small a market share and market share growth surely means Blu-ray is destined to be just a supplementary format to DVD, rather than a replacement. Even release rate growth on Blu-ray has slowed down to near zero. According to the DVD Release Report, with one week to go, Blu-ray has actually released fewer SKUs in 2012 than in 2011.

    There are many ways to obtain HD in the home other than Blu-ray, and using "high definition smackdown" is the theme, with growth (YoY gain/loss) and magnitude (revenue) as yardsticks for the various competing ways of obtaining HD, there is PLENTY of "smackdown" left to be said, and always will be. Kosty would have been flattered, but he would not have wanted smackdown to be closed. Home entertainment HD media performance was very interesting to Kosty, to the point of being a hobby, but he wasn't the only one interested in it.
    Great so kindly give me the revenue numbers for Blu-Ray vs the other hd mediums? How much money did HD VOD bring in last year? HD EST? HD streaming? HD disc rentals?

    Face it, the fight is gone. That is why Smackdown has been vacant. We were left with a handful of people making the same arguments over and over again... Pretty much the definition of insanity right here by the same people. I got caught up in it, so I understand. It is pointless banter and most of the arguments were already made and there is not much more to add.

    The bottomline is that better picture and audio quality was never going to be enough to replace standard definition at lower prices whether it comes in a red case, a blue case, is streamed over the internet, played back via cable/sat, or downloaded to a thumb drive. Why do you think Comcast, DirecTV, Dish, etc still offer the vast majority of their channels in SD still? Because they know that while some people care about quality, most people don't if it means paying more money.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ack_bak View Post
    Great so kindly give me the revenue numbers for Blu-Ray vs the other hd mediums? How much money did HD VOD bring in last year? HD EST? HD streaming? HD disc rentals?

    Face it, the fight is gone. That is why Smackdown has been vacant. We were left with a handful of people making the same arguments over and over again... Pretty much the definition of insanity right here by the same people. I got caught up in it, so I understand. It is pointless banter and most of the arguments were already made and there is not much more to add.

    The bottomline is that better picture and audio quality was never going to be enough to replace standard definition at lower prices whether it comes in a red case, a blue case, is streamed over the internet, played back via cable/sat, or downloaded to a thumb drive. Why do you think Comcast, DirecTV, Dish, etc still offer the vast majority of their channels in SD still? Because they know that while some people care about quality, most people don't if it means paying more money.
    Kosty didn't think that discussing sales performance was insanity. Let's face it Ack, the format war ended 5 years ago. Anyone that still brings that up as an excuse to go "yada yada there's no left to talk about because Blu-ray won" is just stuck in the past.

  7. #22
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    I think it's pretty well understood, this forum has been polarized to two fronts. And to be honest, Kosty was the biggest proponent and had the most bullish views on blu-ray. Now with him gone, there really isn't much if any smackdown. Developments in Hi Def venue is almost nil to none for some time now and will continue to be so since the economy is really bad.

    Blu-ray's growth and performance is pretty much mapped out at this point. 30 percent with continued canablism of DVD sales forever more. Blu-ray isn't going anywhere.

    It's main stream -> it's in mini vans, it's in portable players, it's in laptops, people burn on blu-rays all the time, the pirate community has been for several years putting out full BD rips.

    Sure, it's not as good as many of the companies wanted CE, Studios, and Sony, et al -> but it's fine. The cost to author a BD is a lot lower. The computing power has gone up, etc, etc. The amount to sell to make profit is most likely less - although price erosion appears to have set in already.

    Of course we're talking about a format that is now in it's mid life cycle.

    What's left to smackdown that can be talked about in a regular forum time to time. What's the point in having a dedicated forum. Heated discussions about HD DVD and BD needed it's own location, but that's gone and what's left with PSound gone (the last probable reason to keep the smackdown open anyways).

    Anyhow, close it, archive it, or don't but at least put Kosty's name somewhere someplace in bold, in memory of.

    Thanks.
    Cheers to the ever positive Kosty, may you find peace and happiness in the heavens above.
    Kosty's Obituary
    Kosty's Guestbook
    Kosty's HiDefForum Memorial Thread
    Hidefdigest Zyber Blog

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
    Kosty didn't think that discussing sales performance was insanity. Let's face it Ack, the format war ended 5 years ago. Anyone that still brings that up as an excuse to go "yada yada there's no left to talk about because Blu-ray won" is just stuck in the past.
    All you have to do is look at posting history. To say that the format war did not carryover would be ignorant. It has been the Hatfields and McCoy's all over again. People arguring with each other mainly due to which hidef disc format they preferred, and once the format war ended, those very same people kept right on arguing. It became childish and petty. And the same arguments were rehashed and recycled over and over. Which is why there is little activity here anymore. Aside from sales data there is not much else to really discuss and I think people just tired of the same boring arguments from the same tired people. So yeah, the definition of insanity was pretty much alive and well here and at highdefforum where it seems most people have left as well. If you cannot see this, then I don't know what to tell you.

    If you think there are lots of worthy debates left then keep opening threads and posting and maybe some folks will argue with you and you can keep up the good fight.
    Last edited by ack_bak; 01-11-2013 at 10:08 AM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ack_bak View Post
    All you have to do is look at posting history. To say that the format war did not carryover would be ignorant. It has been the Hatfields and McCoy's all over again. People arguring with each other mainly due to which hidef disc format they preferred, and once the format war ended, those very same people kept right on arguing. It became childish and petty. And the same arguments were rehashed and recycled over and over. Which is why there is little activity here anymore. Aside from sales data there is not much else to really discuss and I think people just tired of the same boring arguments from the same tired people. So yeah, the definition of insanity was pretty much alive and well here and at highdefforum where it seems most people have left as well. If you cannot see this, then I don't know what to tell you.

    If you think there are lots of worthy debates left then keep opening threads and posting and maybe some folks will argue with you and you can keep up the good fight.
    That's your perspective Ack. Not everyone harks back to the format war era and wants brand a certain those for life as ex-HD DVD supporters who hate BLu-ray. Actually none of those whom you think hate Blu-ray actually do. Otherwise we wouldn't be here. I've spent thousands of hours enjoying the format and it's great format. I also enjoy keeping track of sales and releases (just like Kosty did). And truth be told, I'm glad the Blu-ray won. I see the advantages that it has and I appreciate them. Deep down, I'm a glass half full guy.

    That said, I'm not blind to the troubles the format is facing. Sales as a whole are truly disappointing. And although it's not BLu-ray's fault at all, it's the reality of the situation. Why is the format starting to peak at only $2.3 billion? Even VHS peaked at around $6 billion sell through, and that doesn't even account for inflation.

    In the end though, it's not just about Blu-ray. It's very interesting for me to see the evolution and how the various formats compete with each other, and how they are bundled with each other (or not), and now it looks like 4K is truly coming. It doesn't have to be sales talk, and the HE arena is more interesting now I think than it has been since the format war. If you don't think so, then that's your perspective. Like Kosty, I have found it fascinating.

    As for the forum, this is smackdown. By its very name, Hatfield vs. McCoy is encouraged here, as long as you play by the rules. It was much, much worse during the format war than it ever was anytime afterwards (with the exception perhaps of the post format war gloating). If admin agrees and wants to close it down, fine. I hardly post here anyway. But if they do, it would be because the forum is truly dead and serves no immediate nor future purpose.

    Doesn't look that way right now.
    Last edited by bruceames; 01-11-2013 at 11:29 AM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ack_bak View Post
    All you have to do is look at posting history. To say that the format war did not carryover would be ignorant. It has been the Hatfields and McCoy's all over again. People arguring with each other mainly due to which hidef disc format they preferred, and once the format war ended, those very same people kept right on arguing. It became childish and petty. And the same arguments were rehashed and recycled over and over. Which is why there is little activity here anymore. Aside from sales data there is not much else to really discuss and I think people just tired of the same boring arguments from the same tired people. So yeah, the definition of insanity was pretty much alive and well here and at highdefforum where it seems most people have left as well. If you cannot see this, then I don't know what to tell you.

    If you think there are lots of worthy debates left then keep opening threads and posting and maybe some folks will argue with you and you can keep up the good fight.
    I agree with you, it always seemed that way here to me and it's something I've tried to highlight in the past, as someone who wasn't so embroiled. Far too often it became more about shouting the other person down or slinging mud than any reasoned discussion, and to be honest this forum courted that by the confrontational nature of its title and looser rules.

    While some of the events here were pretty shameful, I think the lowest point came when we knew something had happened to Kosty, just prior to finding out he'd passed away. What I'd rather naively thought of as "banter" was shown to be something much nastier from one or two people, though the concern, respect and sadness shown by other "sparring partners" of his was genuinely touching.

    HDF's HD forum is almost as quiet as here, there's just a handful of regulars left and Bruce's sterling work on the stats does generate some discussion. There's still a bit of "Oh if only so-and-so were here!" type stuff that shows the old prejudices linger, but there's a less confrontational atmosphere, so you do get a trickle of new people without those old biases. It's not exactly thriving, but better than nothing.

    Maybe this forum could be rebranded rather than closed, take away the confrontational "Smackdown" element and make it more like the other forums? I still doubt it'll see much action though, like you say all the real activity came from the neverending tit-for-tat and a few die-hards can't provide that kind of car-crash draw.

    Ray Von

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sbert View Post
    I think it's pretty well understood, this forum has been polarized to two fronts. And to be honest, Kosty was the biggest proponent and had the most bullish views on blu-ray. Now with him gone, there really isn't much if any smackdown. Developments in Hi Def venue is almost nil to none for some time now and will continue to be so since the economy is really bad.

    Blu-ray's growth and performance is pretty much mapped out at this point. 30 percent with continued canablism of DVD sales forever more. Blu-ray isn't going anywhere.

    It's main stream -> it's in mini vans, it's in portable players, it's in laptops, people burn on blu-rays all the time, the pirate community has been for several years putting out full BD rips.

    Sure, it's not as good as many of the companies wanted CE, Studios, and Sony, et al -> but it's fine. The cost to author a BD is a lot lower. The computing power has gone up, etc, etc. The amount to sell to make profit is most likely less - although price erosion appears to have set in already.

    Of course we're talking about a format that is now in it's mid life cycle.

    What's left to smackdown that can be talked about in a regular forum time to time. What's the point in having a dedicated forum. Heated discussions about HD DVD and BD needed it's own location, but that's gone and what's left with PSound gone (the last probable reason to keep the smackdown open anyways).

    Anyhow, close it, archive it, or don't but at least put Kosty's name somewhere someplace in bold, in memory of.

    Thanks.
    Kosty was a big BLu-ray supporter, but his real passion was tracking the home entertainment high def media arena. His interest in HD DVD and then BLu-ray simply spurred that on. Kosty was really a big fan of seeing a healthy HE market and watching it evolve and grow.

    Again, it seems to be the "it's only about Blu-ray" mentality here and "smackdown should be closed because blu-ray won and it has no remaining competion". When Blu-ray won, Kosty from the beginning starting tracking BLu-ray's progress against DVD. Maybe because of the lack of progress it's making like watch grass grow that makes it so uninteresting for you now, that a dedicated forum for discussing HD media in general and it's future should be closed down.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Von View Post
    I agree with you, it always seemed that way here to me and it's something I've tried to highlight in the past, as someone who wasn't so embroiled. Far too often it became more about shouting the other person down or slinging mud than any reasoned discussion, and to be honest this forum courted that by the confrontational nature of its title and looser rules.
    Ray Von, I think you are spot on. Now that I have taken a lengthy step back from "Smackdown" it is so easy to see that many of the arguments stemmed from the format war. As much as people don't want to admit it, there were people who genuinely disliked each other as a result of that format war and they clearly did not know how to move on. So it spilled over and it was more about personal vendettas than about true discussion.

    While some of the events here were pretty shameful, I think the lowest point came when we knew something had happened to Kosty, just prior to finding out he'd passed away. What I'd rather naively thought of as "banter" was shown to be something much nastier from one or two people, though the concern, respect and sadness shown by other "sparring partners" of his was genuinely touching.
    It was truly disgusting, and HDF was even worse. Kosty was openly being attacked and some very nasty things were said about him from the same vindictive cast of characters that attacked him here. It honestly made me sick to my stomach to read those comments about Kosty when I felt that something truly bad had happened to him, and to be honest, I really cannot even bear to post or visit HDF anymore and even have any dialogue with people that have that type of mindset about another human being. Especially someone like Kosty who always tended to take the high road and, even when provoked, was the better person. It truly was the lowpoint, and even though I stopped posting for the most part, it made me stop even visiting those forums to read on the latest news. Not worth it. People should have been banned and ashamed for those attacks...

    HDF's HD forum is almost as quiet as here, there's just a handful of regulars left and Bruce's sterling work on the stats does generate some discussion. There's still a bit of "Oh if only so-and-so were here!" type stuff that shows the old prejudices linger, but there's a less confrontational atmosphere, so you do get a trickle of new people without those old biases. It's not exactly thriving, but better than nothing.
    See above. I think most people got tired of the unmoderated attacks that occurred, especially when people really got nasty with the Kosty attacks. It sickened me and I would rather not participate on a forum(s) that condone that type of behavior. Plenty of other places to post.

    Maybe this forum could be rebranded rather than closed, take away the confrontational "Smackdown" element and make it more like the other forums? I still doubt it'll see much action though, like you say all the real activity came from the neverending tit-for-tat and a few die-hards can't provide that kind of car-crash draw.

    Ray Von
    Re-branding is probably the best thing they could do outside of just shutting it down. Honestly, I just don't have the drive to really debate anymore when it comes to home video. At least not with the same tired people who have the same boring agenda. Perhaps in a few years when we see some new advances in technology. I just don't see the status quo changing much at all for the next 3-5 years.

    I always enjoyed your posts and thoughts. My wife and I were just talking about trying to get out to the UK for a vacation. We went to Ireland 1.5 years ago and really loved it. We would love to go to UK since my wife's father lived there for several years and he still raves about it

  13. #28
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    Oh please stop with the melodrama. I'm not going to discuss HDF anymore than just to say that Kosty was attacked here much more than at HDF, and that Kosty privately had high praise for my mod work. Kosty also seems to be much more remembered there than here, even though he posted here much more. It was mostly playful banter and Kosty enjoyed it. Anyway, it's all in the past now. I've said my piece regarding the topic of the thread.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
    Oh please stop with the melodrama. I'm not going to discuss HDF anymore than just to say that Kosty was attacked here much more than at HDF, and that Kosty privately had high praise for my mod work. Kosty also seems to be much more remembered there than here, even though he posted here much more. It was mostly playful banter and Kosty enjoyed it. Anyway, it's all in the past now. I've said my piece regarding the topic of the thread.
    Kosty was openly being attacked as being a shill at HDF when we all knew (and you were one of them that knew this) that something was really wrong with him. He had been very sick before and suddenly went silent for months while a few disgusting individuals were openly allowed to personally attack Kosty. It was disgusting and the mods and owner at HDF should be ashamed. Hope it is a future lesson that people can learn from. And I agree there is nothing more to say.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
    Oh please stop with the melodrama. I'm not going to discuss HDF anymore than just to say that Kosty was attacked here much more than at HDF, and that Kosty privately had high praise for my mod work. Kosty also seems to be much more remembered there than here, even though he posted here much more. It was mostly playful banter and Kosty enjoyed it. Anyway, it's all in the past now. I've said my piece regarding the topic of the thread.
    Bruce, is that addressed to me?

    I just want to be clear - I have nothing but respect for your modding activities at HDF and I hope I didn't say anything that lead you to think I'm calling them into question. I don't know the ins-and-outs, but I suspect you were instrumental in dealing with one particularly divisive user at HDF. Whether it was you or not he was certainly dealt with more decisively than here. I also have huge respect for your stats work in stimulating reasonable discussion.

    The attacks on Kosty during his initial absence, as I said at the time, were distasteful and extremely low, and clearly showed that at least one person had taken this silly grudge match way too seriously. No names, no pack drill, but I hope that the reason that particular person has never even acknowledged Kosty's death is due to a prick of conscience.

    Ray Von

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