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  1. #1531
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    P.S. Writing that last post made me feel like I'm in 2008 again. Exclusives don't matter because sales. Sales =/= quality. All the classic arguments!
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  2. #1532
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    Quote Originally Posted by CorruptedDragon View Post
    Hugely important, yet it was a minority of your library? Amazing.
    I know you're not an idiot, so I don't understand why you post things like that. I mean obviously you know it's dumb if taken directly, but why why do you think it's non-dumb at any level? Is it supposed to be, I don't know, funny? How?

    Yes, CD, one might consider 40% of something to be a rather hugely important fraction thereof. Like if my final grade in a class is 30% homework, 30% midterms, 40% final. The final carries rather monumental importance!

    ---

    All humor aside, if one leaves fanboyism and/or sales talk at the door and looks at quality rationally (yes, quality is subjective, but brains can think about subjective things rationally): The component "exclusives availability" is not some magical thing that has an exact level of importance all by itself. It's not a self-fulfilling prophecy like that. Exclusives are important if -- ya know -- they exist and are good. Whether that's true at a given point in time depends on a million things.

    As far as I am concerned, to a relatively unbiased Uber-nerdy console gamer, last generation made both HD consoles essential. (Wii I don't have a big opinion on, as I didn't grow up on the N franchises and thus don't "feel" their goodness. But even if just looking at Metascores, Nintendo was quite slow at releasing their marquee stuff last gen. It mostly delivered when actually releasing, but slim pickings, and little new IP also.) Why both essential? Because 360 had the better hardware for the mainstream of budgets, and thus the better game library, leading the way in multi-platform performance and online quality; but PS3 had many essential exclusives and fairly quickly starting leading numerically in this dimension also; plus it showed PS3 hardware's visual superiority at the high end of budgets. So if you wanted the best and most beautiful stuff from a well rounded set of genres, you pretty much had to get both consoles. If you only had one (or had both but barely turned it on: same thing) then you were missing out, day 1 at least. *

    This time around it's really not that way from where I'm standing. If you're a diehard Halo or Gears guy, or a diehard racing fan, OK, X1 has something going... but, big picture, it didn't have the hard hitters the way Sony's box did last gen. Though maybe it will now; I don't know.

    (But if you're a fanboy, then none of that matters obviously.)

    ---

    I think "exclusives don't matter" is an ironic technique (whether or not this is intentional), because it's amusingly circular. It's like a groundball pitcher declaring that strikeouts aren't even that big a deal. Well, to him, obviously not, but Randy Johnson did fairly well with them!

    But yes, baseball has scores, whereas you can always hide behind the subjectivity of "quality." Which is fine, but no one is really fooled. This isn't debate class. Everyone that experienced a generation with Halo 3, Uncharted 2, BioShock, TLOU, MGS4, L4D, Gears, etc., knows that it can be an important thing to the playability of a console -- even if those games tend to be outsold by all the various 3rd party franchises.

    * Yes, I am aware that maximum rationality eschews day 1 and instead glories in day 800, at which point the game in question has been remastered and re-released for 10% the price. Nevertheless, there is some value to getting a game within a year of its original release. Maybe not day 1 per se.
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  3. #1533
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedRedSuit View Post
    irrelevant to people with taste.
    Pinkies up, bitches!
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  4. #1534
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    Quote Originally Posted by redredsuit View Post
    i know you're not an idiot, so i don't understand why you post things like that. I mean obviously you know it's dumb if taken directly, but why why do you think it's non-dumb at any level? Is it supposed to be, i don't know, funny? How?

    Yes, cd, one might consider 40% of something to be a rather hugely important fraction thereof. Like if my final grade in a class is 30% homework, 30% midterms, 40% final. The final carries rather monumental importance!

    ---

    all humor aside, if one leaves fanboyism and/or sales talk at the door and looks at quality rationally (yes, quality is subjective, but brains can think about subjective things rationally): The component "exclusives availability" is not some magical thing that has an exact level of importance all by itself. It's not a self-fulfilling prophecy like that. Exclusives are important if -- ya know -- they exist and are good. Whether that's true at a given point in time depends on a million things.

    As far as i am concerned, to a relatively unbiased uber-nerdy console gamer, last generation made both hd consoles essential. (wii i don't have a big opinion on, as i didn't grow up on the n franchises and thus don't "feel" their goodness. But even if just looking at metascores, nintendo was quite slow at releasing their marquee stuff last gen. It mostly delivered when actually releasing, but slim pickings, and little new ip also.) why both essential? Because 360 had the better hardware for the mainstream of budgets, and thus the better game library, leading the way in multi-platform performance and online quality; but ps3 had many essential exclusives and fairly quickly starting leading numerically in this dimension also; plus it showed ps3 hardware's visual superiority at the high end of budgets. So if you wanted the best and most beautiful stuff from a well rounded set of genres, you pretty much had to get both consoles. If you only had one (or had both but barely turned it on: Same thing) then you were missing out, day 1 at least. *

    this time around it's really not that way from where i'm standing. If you're a diehard halo or gears guy, or a diehard racing fan, ok, x1 has something going... But, big picture, it didn't have the hard hitters the way sony's box did last gen. Though maybe it will now; i don't know.

    (but if you're a fanboy, then none of that matters obviously.)

    ---

    i think "exclusives don't matter" is an ironic technique (whether or not this is intentional), because it's amusingly circular. It's like a groundball pitcher declaring that strikeouts aren't even that big a deal. Well, to him, obviously not, but randy johnson did fairly well with them!

    But yes, baseball has scores, whereas you can always hide behind the subjectivity of "quality." which is fine, but no one is really fooled. This isn't debate class. Everyone that experienced a generation with halo 3, uncharted 2, bioshock, tlou, mgs4, l4d, gears, etc., knows that it can be an important thing to the playability of a console -- even if those games tend to be outsold by all the various 3rd party franchises.

    * yes, i am aware that maximum rationality eschews day 1 and instead glories in day 800, at which point the game in question has been remastered and re-released for 10% the price. Nevertheless, there is some value to getting a game within a year of its original release. Maybe not day 1 per se.

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  5. #1535
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedRedSuit View Post
    I think "exclusives don't matter" is an ironic technique
    Who suggested that? You're fabricating extremism to make your point appear more rational.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital Foundry
    The question boils down to this: is 4K really worth it? And the answer to that is pretty straightforward - it definitely is. The detail increase is profound in its own right and moves into a different level entirely with HDR engaged. Link

  6. #1536
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    It wasn't some intentional sneaky misrepresentation, just shorthand for the repeated assertions that exclusives aren't important/are much less important than how well multiplatform games run/etc. Basically any form of downplaying their importance. When people used "PS4 ain't got no games," no one got all pedantic with, "now now, I never said it ain't got NO games... just very few games of acceptable quality indeed!" It's just short-hand and doesn't make my argument particularly stronger. Nothing evil intended.

    It's a sound argument anyway. Exclusives are important -- in terms of determining a console's quality to the relatively nerdy/picky game of the type that frequents here or GAF -- to the extent that good exclusives are released... which isn't a constant thing but rather a function of complicated factors. Hence "exclusives matter little/less than X/etc." in defending the worthiness of a console is a circular defense. Pretty straightforward argument than we'd probably agree on easily, if you and I were some other people and not you and I.
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  7. #1537
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    Man, Red's writing is all proper and shit

  8. #1538
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedRedSuit View Post
    It wasn't some intentional sneaky misrepresentation, just shorthand for the repeated assertions that exclusives aren't important/are much less important than how well multiplatform games run/etc. Basically any form of downplaying their importance. When people used "PS4 ain't got no games," no one got all pedantic with, "now now, I never said it ain't got NO games... just very few games of acceptable quality indeed!" It's just short-hand and doesn't make my argument particularly stronger. Nothing evil intended.

    It's a sound argument anyway. Exclusives are important -- in terms of determining a console's quality to the relatively nerdy/picky game of the type that frequents here or GAF -- to the extent that good exclusives are released... which isn't a constant thing but rather a function of complicated factors. Hence "exclusives matter little/less than X/etc." in defending the worthiness of a console is a circular defense. Pretty straightforward argument than we'd probably agree on easily, if you and I were some other people and not you and I.
    Hmm.. Seems like you spent a lot of time (this thread) promoting something that real-world data proves to be of relatively minor importance. Xbots aren't downplaying exclusives, mathematics are!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital Foundry
    The question boils down to this: is 4K really worth it? And the answer to that is pretty straightforward - it definitely is. The detail increase is profound in its own right and moves into a different level entirely with HDR engaged. Link

  9. #1539
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdinred View Post
    Hmm.. Seems like you spent a lot of time (this thread) promoting something that real-world data proves to be of relatively minor importance. Xbots aren't downplaying exclusives, mathematics are!
    I know you're not dumb enough to not see the at least 2 skipped logical steps in what you wrote.

    Skipped logical step 1: Sales =/= quality. Even if Madden outsell BioShock x3 every year, that doesn't mean that "mathematically" the former kicks the shit out of the latter. In the eyes of nerds with decent taste such as those around here, one wins in sales mathematically, but the other wins on quality. So you can make a sales argument but not a quality argument based on this. Hence this thread: it counted games by score.

    Skipped logical step 2: Showing that exclusives are lacking as proof that exclusives aren't a big deal when evaluating a console = circular reasoning. Again, it's like a groundball pitcher claiming strikeouts aren't a big deal. They are... just not for him! So when in the old days Halo sells 15 million or FF sells 10, but nowadays they don't, that doesn't mean there's something magical about exclusives that makes them not matter. It just means exclusives are less of a factor due to shitty investment into exclusives by MS -- letting Bungie go, whiffing on good new IPs, etc. -- or third parties temporarily reducing investment into exclusives. But if a company invests into exclusives, then they become a big deal again. Or 3rd parties start ignoring one of the consoles, then yiu start getting third party exclusives again (Persona, Nier, Ace Combat, etc.).

    So basically: Sales =/= quality, and exclusives matter when they're made and don't when they're not... and right now they are.
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  10. #1540
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    Sales != Quality isn't in question. There you go again, propping up a fake argument to offset your own opinion.

    Exclusives matter to some people and are less important to others. The data suggests they are less important to most people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital Foundry
    The question boils down to this: is 4K really worth it? And the answer to that is pretty straightforward - it definitely is. The detail increase is profound in its own right and moves into a different level entirely with HDR engaged. Link

  11. #1541
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    Survey from a few years back.. more evidence to support my point..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital Foundry
    The question boils down to this: is 4K really worth it? And the answer to that is pretty straightforward - it definitely is. The detail increase is profound in its own right and moves into a different level entirely with HDR engaged. Link

  12. #1542
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdinred View Post
    Survey from a few years back.. more evidence to support my point..
    So by that we can deduce that

    Games matter most to PS4 owners(and not even exclusives), then Xbox owners, and lastly WiiU owners

  13. #1543
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdinred View Post
    Survey from a few years back.. more evidence to support my point..

    Isn't that bias?
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  14. #1544
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdinred View Post
    Sales != Quality isn't in question. There you go again, propping up a fake argument to offset your own opinion.

    Exclusives matter to some people and are less important to others. The data suggests they are less important to most people.
    Sony has about a 30 million lead over X box this Generation. Because of that lead Sony can command more say so on partnerships with 3rd parties just as Microsoft had with X box 360 launching a year earlier than PS3.

    Microsoft does not have the advantage they did last Gen with timed exclusive content etc.
    While Microsoft does have Backwards Compatibly, 4k Blue ray player going for it. Its really hard to market your argument. Multiplatform games will look noticeable better on the Xbox Brand vs. Sony Marketing Multiplatform games towards a niche group wont change things for Microsoft. Let me break it down Games sell consoles, Developers making games that stand out sell consoles. Microsoft should have given Bungie the freedom they requested. Losing Bungie put a dent in the X Box Brand. So basically exclusive's mattered last generation but not generation.

    Bias a bit.............. much ...
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  15. #1545
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutter21 View Post
    Sony has about a 30 million lead over X box this Generation. Because of that lead Sony can command more say so on partnerships with 3rd parties just as Microsoft had with X box 360 launching a year earlier than PS3.

    Microsoft does not have the advantage they did last Gen with timed exclusive content etc.
    While Microsoft does have Backwards Compatibly, 4k Blue ray player going for it. Its really hard to market your argument. Multiplatform games will look noticeable better on the Xbox Brand vs. Sony Marketing Multiplatform games towards a niche group wont change things for Microsoft. Let me break it down Games sell consoles, Developers making games that stand out sell consoles. Microsoft should have given Bungie the freedom they requested. Losing Bungie put a dent in the X Box Brand. So basically exclusive's mattered last generation but this generation its all about the powah
    I found this difficult to read, but you've supplied no evidence, just opinion.
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    Xbox One The Leader in 4K Entertainment.


    Quote Originally Posted by Digital Foundry
    The question boils down to this: is 4K really worth it? And the answer to that is pretty straightforward - it definitely is. The detail increase is profound in its own right and moves into a different level entirely with HDR engaged. Link

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