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  #771  
Old 12-07-2018, 12:43 PM
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That's all these "Retro" and "Classic" items ever were. 99.9% of gamers don't care about the accuracy of the emulation if they don't experience any major problems playing the games they care about, and these games have been available for free for years. Even if you wanted to stick to the ethical/legal side, Sony and Nintendo have given people the option to buy most (not sure about all?) of these games on the digital stores.

People bought the NES and SNES because they were cute - that's it.
You are right. Which is why Iím always wondering why itís such a big news item. I guess nostalgia is big.

Side note on legality: Even with PCX2, the emulator is legal. You do have to get your own consoleís ROM, and downloading it online is technically illegal (but IMO thatís only a technicality, at least if you had the console regardless at some point). Of course downloading games is illegal, but you can trivially play off your own game DVD (or rip its image), all legal. Iíve actually been playing Ace Combat 0 on the emulator and have never popped it into an actual console. In HD looks glorious. Not to mention widescreen and other goodies.

Last edited by RedRedSuit; 12-07-2018 at 01:14 PM.
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  #772  
Old 12-07-2018, 01:12 PM
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Nothing has changed here.

Although Arthur is the most lovable son of a bitch I've had the pleasure of playing in some time. And unlike GTAV, and past Rockstar games, I've actually enjoyed the optional stuff enough where it makes this fundamental flaw matter less to me.
Sad.

RDR2 got a bit smacked around last night at those awards, so maybe the Housers will reflect on it a bit. I feel theyíre very insulated from the outside world. Maybe God of War winning most major awards will be a wake up call. Maybe not.

Surprisingly AC:O, from a series made famous by linear shit missions and pointless collecting, really got it right this time. I donít even know how exactly, but it just works. Probably itís that the basic systems are super fun, the fighting system especially. Plus all the sights and sounds and a nice integration of story with the Cult side missions. But I donít know, itís just really good, from a series that has been the poster child for annual mediocrity.
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  #773  
Old 12-07-2018, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by RedRedSuit View Post
Sad.

RDR2 got a bit smacked around last night at those awards, so maybe the Housers will reflect on it a bit. I feel theyíre very insulated from the outside world. Maybe God of War winning most major awards will be a wake up call. Maybe not.

Surprisingly AC:O, from a series made famous by linear shit missions and pointless collecting, really got it right this time. I donít even know how exactly, but it just works. Probably itís that the basic systems are super fun, the fighting system especially. Plus all the sights and sounds and a nice integration of story with the Cult side missions. But I donít know, itís just really good, from a series that has been the poster child for annual mediocrity.
RDR still won a ton of awards and is selling a ton of copies. It didn't take the big prize, but it beat out God of War in several categories aside from GOTY and Direction (maybe Action Adventure? GOW 'only' won 3 awards). They still received a ton of acclaim and will pick up plenty of GOTY awards. I wouldn't be remotely hopeful of them receiving a wake up call if you're concerned about their current output
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  #774  
Old 12-07-2018, 03:06 PM
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RDR still won a ton of awards and is selling a ton of copies. It didn't take the big prize, but it beat out God of War in several categories aside from GOTY and Direction (maybe Action Adventure? GOW 'only' won 3 awards). They still received a ton of acclaim and will pick up plenty of GOTY awards. I wouldn't be remotely hopeful of them receiving a wake up call if you're concerned about their current output
RDR2 won 4 to GoWís 3 (including, yes, best action game), and they were all story or sound awards. RDR2 has sold record numbers on hype and hype reviews, and to be fair many people do like it. Still, even for the latter, the positive reactions are always hugely qualified, like ďitís a real pain in the ass to play, BUT I just love the feeling of it.Ē

I can only speculate and hope that the R* brass are looking at everything, and not just what they want to see. If it were I, professional and creative pride would lead me to reevaluate some things. But it has never happened before, hence the strangely regressive game design in many of their games. I can only speculate and hope it wonít continue for GTA6, or whatever is next.
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  #775  
Old 12-07-2018, 05:32 PM
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RDR2 won 4 to GoWís 3 (including, yes, best action game), and they were all story or sound awards. RDR2 has sold record numbers on hype and hype reviews, and to be fair many people do like it. Still, even for the latter, the positive reactions are always hugely qualified, like ďitís a real pain in the ass to play, BUT I just love the feeling of it.Ē

I can only speculate and hope that the R* brass are looking at everything, and not just what they want to see. If it were I, professional and creative pride would lead me to reevaluate some things. But it has never happened before, hence the strangely regressive game design in many of their games. I can only speculate and hope it wonít continue for GTA6, or whatever is next.
Rockstar just strikes me as a team that always goes to the sound of their own tune. I think you're overstating some of the negativity as well. Yes there are qualifications, myself included, but holistically, there are tons of people who very much love it despite any sort of reservations, rather than just say a mild recommendation I also would be incredibly surprised if RDR2 didn't have long lasting legs, not to the level of GTAV, but well beyond the point where we dismiss its sales as "hype" and "hype reviews"

This defense isn't even out of some love to Rockstar, but more that, from what I observe, I doubt Rockstar would feel particularly worried about losing GOTY to another immensely qualified game, not to mention they've probably bounced back from 'worse' (GTA4 had bigger backlash I think.). Also, please don't overwork employees to death in overhauling mission design in the process
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  #776  
Old 12-07-2018, 06:00 PM
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Iím sort of in a hurry and not articulating very well but itís not that I donít think Rockstar has tons of strides to make in mission design and controls, they do, RDR2 could be even more fantastic with more engaging missions (again Iím only half way through). But I do think what there is stands as a very high quality game that earns a lot of its praise, so I object a bit to the idea that the game gets by name recognition alone which is sort of the implication I get from various people. I like it more than most of Rockstarís output in the past 10 years if only because the regressive nature seems to work for me in 19th century wild Wild West. But relatively speaking it didnít work for me in GTAV where I was content going through the game and calling it a day.

Max Payne 3 is actually my favorite Rockstar game from the hi definition era of their output
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  #777  
Old 12-07-2018, 06:45 PM
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Well, it's hard for me to argue about anything based on other people's input and without playing it myself. Just hard to overlook how many people refer to it feeling more like work than play, major positive reviews saying it's not actually "fun," etc. It's totally possible it's fantastic in ways X, Y, Z but majorly un-fantastic in ways A, B, C. They can always do better next time by cutting back on the latter.

In terms of what I meant by hype and hype reviews:

Sales on hype: Expectations were for a game that's like RDR1 but even better and by today's standards at that. This will guarantee some huge sales before any reviews even come out or are read by skeptical gamers. Did it clear those expectations? Sort of sounds like yes in some ways, no in some other ways, overall no, at least for a lot of people.

Sales on hype reviews: Games with huge hype review several points about what they would get if it were a new series/IP/developer. We all know this is true. GTA IV in another series from another developer would score in the high 80s or low 90s, not the high 90s. RDR2 scored in the high 90s, which would normally guarantee it GOTY reception almost universally; instead it's getting GOTY reception like a low 90s game. This kind of scores will yield a bunch more sales than it otherwise would have received.

Bottom line, it sounds like it's a very good game or even great game that scored like an all-time, unassailable classic, an Ocarina or Mario Odyssey. Is it an accomplishment, a huge one? Clearly. But is it a GOTG type of accomplishment? I don't know. But it sells like one, at least initially.

Re. GTA IV backlash vs. RDR2 backlash: It seems that actually the backlash is pretty similar, in that it's realism to the detriment of gameplay convenience. On the other hand, GTA IV also had an immensely overrated (by reviews) story (Oscar-worthy! my ass), and it was remarkably less huge and of lesser scope than its previous-generation predecessors. None of this applies to RDR2, from what I can tell. On the other hand, GTA IV usually didn't quite feel like work.
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  #778  
Old 12-07-2018, 09:12 PM
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Glad GoW won GOTY last night, especially since Jaffe went off the deep end lately.

I really need to start playing FH4, no surprise it won as well
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  #779  
Old 12-07-2018, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by RedRedSuit View Post
Well, it's hard for me to argue about anything based on other people's input and without playing it myself. Just hard to overlook how many people refer to it feeling more like work than play, major positive reviews saying it's not actually "fun," etc. It's totally possible it's fantastic in ways X, Y, Z but majorly un-fantastic in ways A, B, C. They can always do better next time by cutting back on the latter.

In terms of what I meant by hype and hype reviews:

Sales on hype: Expectations were for a game that's like RDR1 but even better and by today's standards at that. This will guarantee some huge sales before any reviews even come out or are read by skeptical gamers. Did it clear those expectations? Sort of sounds like yes in some ways, no in some other ways, overall no, at least for a lot of people.

Sales on hype reviews: Games with huge hype review several points about what they would get if it were a new series/IP/developer. We all know this is true. GTA IV in another series from another developer would score in the high 80s or low 90s, not the high 90s. RDR2 scored in the high 90s, which would normally guarantee it GOTY reception almost universally; instead it's getting GOTY reception like a low 90s game. This kind of scores will yield a bunch more sales than it otherwise would have received.

Bottom line, it sounds like it's a very good game or even great game that scored like an all-time, unassailable classic, an Ocarina or Mario Odyssey. Is it an accomplishment, a huge one? Clearly. But is it a GOTG type of accomplishment? I don't know. But it sells like one, at least initially.

Re. GTA IV backlash vs. RDR2 backlash: It seems that actually the backlash is pretty similar, in that it's realism to the detriment of gameplay convenience. On the other hand, GTA IV also had an immensely overrated (by reviews) story (Oscar-worthy! my ass), and it was remarkably less huge and of lesser scope than its previous-generation predecessors. None of this applies to RDR2, from what I can tell. On the other hand, GTA IV usually didn't quite feel like work.
Personally, since my tolerance threshold for games is bigger than most I don't subscribe to the idea of a game having to be fun (same as I don't subscribe to a film having to be 'entertaining'). A feeling is important and if the feeling urges me to continue and I feel moved in some way, then I consider that to be value. So even though the game isn't always 'fun' and does feel like 'work' at times, I do think it's often in service of a more immersive and moving experience in the process. I don't know why I didn't feel this way in GTA4, perhaps it's more fully realized here. So many cool bits happen and I pause to think about how interesting that was. For example, I ran into a prisoner who escaped and wanted me to break his shackles. My first thought was to hogtie him and take him to the sheriff and I got paid for it. Was it super fun? No, but I thought about how neat it was to have that kind of choice and how it added to the Arthur I want to simulate.

Regarding sales on hype reviews, I think this is the case for any prestige developer, the obvious two being Naughty Dog and Rockstar. There's always a degree of skepticism you gotta take with the scores they receive. Bethesda was another (then Fallout 76 happened, or 4 depending on who you ask). It is what it is. My point is merely to say that unlike some of Rockstar's previous works of late, I feel like this game earned more of its praise relative to reviews than its other titles.

I don't deny that the complaints of GTAIV and RDR2 are similar (realism vs gameplay), I simply disagree that the degree of backlash is as severe as GTAIV. Again, I probably have to avoid landmines in spoilers so I try not to read too much about people's thoughts on RDR2, but it seemed to me as time went by and people got deeper into the game, notably after Chapter 1/2, it felt like the backlash subsided a bit. At the very least, it seems like people care enough about Arthur to keep going compared to say Niko, who was seemingly an unlikable protagonist.
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  #780  
Old 12-09-2018, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Onslaught X View Post
Personally, since my tolerance threshold for games is bigger than most I don't subscribe to the idea of a game having to be fun (same as I don't subscribe to a film having to be 'entertaining'). A feeling is important and if the feeling urges me to continue and I feel moved in some way, then I consider that to be value. So even though the game isn't always 'fun' and does feel like 'work' at times, I do think it's often in service of a more immersive and moving experience in the process.
This is kind of my feeling as well for RDR 2. I have very ambivalent emotions about this game. I've been playing it on and off, haven't had the urge to sit down and do marathon sessions, which already tells me a LOT about my own feelings towards the game in general, but at the same time, I do like coming back to it.

On the one hand, I think it's a gutsy move on Rockstar's part to say "We're ignoring the convenience, QOL features of other open world games that make those things so friendly. You're in the Wild West. It's not an easy place. We will not make this an easy experience for you." Few studios in the world could get away with that "Play this game on our terms, not yours" philosophy and still make a huge smash in sales, but Rockstar has done it.

On the other hand, it has REALLY forced me calculate just how much time I have to play the game. The way fast-travel works--or doesn't, really--makes every sessions where I play this game one where I look at the map, judge the amount of time it might take to get from one point to other, since fast-travel only works one way, and only if you've visited that area, and ONLY if you've upgraded the camp, and decide whether to invest the time required to get to that point or not.

Or just fire up Persona 4: Dancing All Night and go a couple of songs, then tap out. It's almost like Rockstar was saying to customers, "This game demands commitment. No excuses. But you'll give it and you'll like it." And so far, it looks like most people have been willing to take them up on that offer.

If you're not a student, and you've got a job, or other commitments like family, RDR 2 just DOESN'T WORK. It really falls under that "does not respect your time," side of games. So if you're a parent that can only squeeze in a few minutes before the kids need attending to, or you just want a half-hour of messing around before bed, RDR 2 doesn't really mesh with that lifestyle. It wants you to set aside the evening and just play it. That's a bold choice, but I can how for many people, it's no longer practical.
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