Concerns regarding the HD Smackdown forum - High-Def Digest Forums
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:34 AM
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Default Concerns regarding the HD Smackdown forum

I am posting this as a recommendation from staff. I have been a regular in Smackdown for nearly five years. It's unique among all HD forums in that debate can be both serious and lighthearted at the same time. There's not that many regulars posting any more so we all know each other pretty well and we're friends for the most part.

My concern is that it seems that moderation, while otherwise being well done, has taken a slant towards one side and that offenses don't seem to be uniformly handled. There are times when users get the benefit of the doubt almost universally, creating an "untouchable" feeling, whereas other times some get what they feel are petty infractions, for making nearly identical comments. The place seems stifled now, the liveliness gone and post counts have gone sharply as of late.

Therefore I propose that a moderator with no known bias handle the Smackdown area, in order to keep a lively debate and instill confidence in those feeling somewhat disenfranchised. Thank you for your consideration.
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:44 AM
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Thanks for your feedback.

All moderators have access to all posts which are reported and do take action as appropriate on those posts. As a general forum member I'm not sure what actions you are aware of as made by moderators as that information is generally not given out to others.

Reported posts have certainly been handled by a variety of moderators as of late and certainly various members have been spoken to on all sides of the issues.
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:59 AM
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AV, most users are aware of moderation vs no moderation due to the fact that edited posts by mods leave an edited notation, or their general deletion. I think the actions being referred to here is what some are seeing as a slant towards how one side of an argument is being handled versus another, perception, basically, since obviously only moderators see the information in question.

As the Smackdown area has changed over the years, with the format wars, now its current place and shape/state/form, so too has the conversation, the moderators involved, so on, so forth. Users banned, new users in their place, change. Some may feel that a little change would not be a bad thing in there, and could make things more lively if there isn't a concern that naysayers will get a treatment different than cheerleaders, for lack of better terms for both sides of the same argument we've been seeing the last year in that area.
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Old 10-13-2011, 09:35 AM
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Thank you for your response AV and whatever consideration you may give to the matter. And also to you Nate for clarifying further. I have great respect for the job you guys do so I don't wish this to be construed as some sort of complaint on the modding itself, as I think it is just fine, and these are my favorite forums on the internet. Anyway, thanks again.
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Old 10-13-2011, 11:17 AM
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I'd love to give my opinion on this issue. But doing so might be construed as a complaint against the moderators. Please do not take this that way. I have the utmost respect for the folks who do the moderating here. But I'd like to give a couple of examples of things I've noticed. If you guys want to ban me for speaking my mind then so be it. Because frankly I won't be sticking around any longer anyway due to the problem I see.

I've been banned or infracted for "one liners". This is just a one line tounge in cheek comment. Not to be taken too seriously. Not offensive. Now if this sort of thing is not to be tolerated? Go back in the smackdown thread and look at all of them that have been made against myself and others and you will see the obvious inconstancy and bias. Also notice that many of those guys I have never seen banned. And they do these same kinds of "one liners" all the time. A lot of them very offensive in nature. Yet again. Never see those guys with a banned tag under their names.

Look at PSound. He is a new member here. Never saw him banned. Yet his first ban and he is apparently permabanned? Maybe he is not permabanned and will be back? But his first ban seems to go against the normal forum ban guidelines. I can understand why he was banned. Looks like he was going on about Kosty being a shill. But I have a hard time believing he was warned and did it again. And if he did? Is it normal procedure to get banned for as long as he has?

Look at that guy Badboi from Bluray.com. He came here and was allowed to verbally abuse many members here including myself. He was mostly focused on myself and was very offensive. He continued to get away with this even after I reported him several times. He was only banned when both Gizmo and PSound got their extended bans.

There are many. Other examples that can be brought up. Any active member of the smackdown forum knows there has been an unfair bias against any former HDDVD supporter. That's been obvious. I don't know if it's one MOD or several. I'm guess it's been one mod as I've seen other mods like OnslaughtX very active in the game section and very fair and neutral doing an excellent job. We need more of that in the HIDEF section.

I know I don't pay to be a member of this site. But I've been a very active long time member here. Which is valuable to this sites advertisers. If these kinds of problems continue the site may start losing it's members. I think this needs to be seriously looked at. Thanks for letting me view my opinions. And thanks for the years of entertainment I've had here. I hope that relationship can continue.

Mal
  #6  
Old 10-13-2011, 01:25 PM
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I think that the main issues in there are the following:

-That forum used to serve a very clear purpose, but that purpose is long-since concluded and the discussion hasn't adapted well

-Because of the nature of the conclusion of the format war, a lot of hd-dvd members either stopped posting, or transformed to blu-ray fans. A very small amount of people are still posting for the hd-dvd side and are generally (not all) people that were fervently against blu-ray. Those folks, as we all know, "lost" the war - but some of them have hung around for years after the fact to "stick it to the blu koolaid drinkers" as some of them have explicitly admitted. I don't mean to say that the only people in there are blu-glasses wearing people vs trolls. What this DOES mean though, is that of the few people left still trying to "fight the good fight" - many of them are going to be posting messages that are often perceived as somewhat venomous, unkind, or disruptive. Afterall, it takes a special person with great dedication to remain in that forum for years after the death of their preferred format, but still argue against blu-ray where possible. Some of those people are going to be QUITE hardened and bitter.

-This isn't to say the blu-ray fans have perfect behavior either, because they dont. However, it seems obvious that cheerleading a high def format on a high def site that celebrates such a format, or even outright bragging - would be much more tolerated than would be constant venom and doom and gloom. Of the people that seem more frequently banned in there, it's the more vocal folks with an anti-bluray agenda, I totally agree. However, I think that's an obvious result and to be expected. It has to do with an equal mix of their agenda, their posting style, and their character. I don't think you can realistically ask the staff here to behave otherwise.

-I submit that the low numbers in that forum aren't due to moderating so much as they are due to (1) the lowering number of posters across the forum generally, and (2) the loss of purpose for the particular forum you're participating in -- afterall, you guys sort of semi-evolved that forum into a place that very few people are going to have interest in aside from some highly specialized enthusiasts (keep in mind that you're parsing/tracking sales numbers at a high levels on all sorts of things, and discussing/speculating on content delivery services and streaming... These are simply things that the vast majority of people are going to have no interest in. As that forum moves more and more into those types of discussion, you find fewer people interested generally)
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Old 10-13-2011, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malanthius View Post
I'd love to give my opinion on this issue. But doing so might be construed as a complaint against the moderators. Please do not take this that way. I have the utmost respect for the folks who do the moderating here. But I'd like to give a couple of examples of things I've noticed. If you guys want to ban me for speaking my mind then so be it. Because frankly I won't be sticking around any longer anyway due to the problem I see.

I've been banned or infracted for "one liners". This is just a one line tounge in cheek comment. Not to be taken too seriously. Not offensive. Now if this sort of thing is not to be tolerated? Go back in the smackdown thread and look at all of them that have been made against myself and others and you will see the obvious inconstancy and bias. Also notice that many of those guys I have never seen banned. And they do these same kinds of "one liners" all the time. A lot of them very offensive in nature. Yet again. Never see those guys with a banned tag under their names.

Look at PSound. He is a new member here. Never saw him banned. Yet his first ban and he is apparently permabanned? Maybe he is not permabanned and will be back? But his first ban seems to go against the normal forum ban guidelines. I can understand why he was banned. Looks like he was going on about Kosty being a shill. But I have a hard time believing he was warned and did it again. And if he did? Is it normal procedure to get banned for as long as he has?

Look at that guy Badboi from Bluray.com. He came here and was allowed to verbally abuse many members here including myself. He was mostly focused on myself and was very offensive. He continued to get away with this even after I reported him several times. He was only banned when both Gizmo and PSound got their extended bans.

There are many. Other examples that can be brought up. Any active member of the smackdown forum knows there has been an unfair bias against any former HDDVD supporter. That's been obvious. I don't know if it's one MOD or several. I'm guess it's been one mod as I've seen other mods like OnslaughtX very active in the game section and very fair and neutral doing an excellent job. We need more of that in the HIDEF section.

I know I don't pay to be a member of this site. But I've been a very active long time member here. Which is valuable to this sites advertisers. If these kinds of problems continue the site may start losing it's members. I think this needs to be seriously looked at. Thanks for letting me view my opinions. And thanks for the years of entertainment I've had here. I hope that relationship can continue.

Mal
To expound on this thought...

both sides can get "moderated" but that does not inherently mean EVENLY. in this particular subforum, both sides are equally guilty of any rules violations. both sides of the fence bait a ton, troll, go on off tangents or make snide remarks that at times border on cruel and insensitive. but users are stating they only see one side of said fence ever pay the price for it. they're talking about issues where an equal statement remains where their statements are purged and punished. hence, their concerns for bias.

additionally, having served this site for about two years as a mod in a couple stints, i can say that it's a position that after a while can get to you. you can try to do the right thing, but after doing the same shit over and over, your stances do change, and a bias can begin to show. no one can argue this with me, as i've been there, i'm not just on the outside wondering what happens behind the curtain. it's tough not to eventually get a bias. in my time, i didn't do shit about xbox vs playstation bickering, or red versus blue and all that crap, but dealt with personal attacks and trolling/derailing. after the same mod hands out the same warnings and infractions to the same user, it does start to get personal. in my time, when i had an issue with a user, if shit went personal, i did my best to step away and invite other moderators to look at said situation. that's what users are asking here, to not just be dismissed, to have someone they feel is neutral and fair to them be the one giving the glances rather than people they feel judge based off personal preference.

i'm on very good, friendly terms with a number of moderators. quite a few of them currently active are ones i lobbied for. i'm also on very bad terms with a few, though i've done my best to keep it to myself in public areas of the forum, so as to not be disruptive. this isn't me just taking a dump on their doorstep. the concern is how much alienation can the users of an area take or feel before they feel it is no longer worth it, in a situation where concessions are not given to the users all that often, if ever. naturally users only see one side of the fence, they don't see the actions mods take on most others, but when they see group A constantly taking bans, whereas group B is always there to continue their argument, it can upset users.

taking the hardline won't help the forum. readers know i can be a snarky dick, but i also will bend over backwards to help users when they ask for it. they also know in any business they, the customer, are the most valuable asset. even if we don't always agree with customers, shouldn't we also try to make their experience a better one? if they have an issue, should it be dismissed by those who they feel is the one creating it and have it be left at that?
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Old 10-13-2011, 04:51 PM
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I think one of the biggest issues may be that there are a fair number of posts which are not getting reported by anyone. In the last week, about a half dozen or so warnings/infractions have been handed out by several moderators. These have come almost equally from different mods, not any one particular moderator.

But, most of these have been the result of posts which were sent to moderators using the 'REPORT POST' button.

Very few moderators have any real involvement with The Smackdown area, and in the last couple of weeks there has been a significant ramping up of efforts to bring a bit more civility to that area and to ensure that people are debating the formats, not just sniping at one another or saying one liners to draw conversations off topic. It's been a arguementative ploy for several users to not answer questions or deal with topics, but to nitpick and jab at others whenver information is presented they don't want to deal with.

This does occur on both sides from time to time and both sides deserve and receive fair treatment as far as I can tell. I certainly have encouraged all moderators to take part in that section and to help with moderation duties there and will continue to encourage them to do so.

I think when you look at the last year, where people were just degrading that section to a bunch of bickering back and forth with very little discussion, it is clear that something needed to change in there. If it turns out that all that occurs in Smackdown is bickering, and no real discussion, then it will be decided at some later point why that is occurring and how it will be dealt with.
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Old 10-13-2011, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by project-blu View Post
To expound on this thought...

both sides can get "moderated" but that does not inherently mean EVENLY. in this particular subforum, both sides are equally guilty of any rules violations. both sides of the fence bait a ton, troll, go on off tangents or make snide remarks that at times border on cruel and insensitive. but users are stating they only see one side of said fence ever pay the price for it. they're talking about issues where an equal statement remains where their statements are purged and punished. hence, their concerns for bias.

additionally, having served this site for about two years as a mod in a couple stints, i can say that it's a position that after a while can get to you. you can try to do the right thing, but after doing the same shit over and over, your stances do change, and a bias can begin to show. no one can argue this with me, as i've been there, i'm not just on the outside wondering what happens behind the curtain. it's tough not to eventually get a bias. in my time, i didn't do shit about xbox vs playstation bickering, or red versus blue and all that crap, but dealt with personal attacks and trolling/derailing. after the same mod hands out the same warnings and infractions to the same user, it does start to get personal. in my time, when i had an issue with a user, if shit went personal, i did my best to step away and invite other moderators to look at said situation. that's what users are asking here, to not just be dismissed, to have someone they feel is neutral and fair to them be the one giving the glances rather than people they feel judge based off personal preference.

i'm on very good, friendly terms with a number of moderators. quite a few of them currently active are ones i lobbied for. i'm also on very bad terms with a few, though i've done my best to keep it to myself in public areas of the forum, so as to not be disruptive. this isn't me just taking a dump on their doorstep. the concern is how much alienation can the users of an area take or feel before they feel it is no longer worth it, in a situation where concessions are not given to the users all that often, if ever. naturally users only see one side of the fence, they don't see the actions mods take on most others, but when they see group A constantly taking bans, whereas group B is always there to continue their argument, it can upset users.

taking the hardline won't help the forum. readers know i can be a snarky dick, but i also will bend over backwards to help users when they ask for it. they also know in any business they, the customer, are the most valuable asset. even if we don't always agree with customers, shouldn't we also try to make their experience a better one? if they have an issue, should it be dismissed by those who they feel is the one creating it and have it be left at that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post
I think one of the biggest issues may be that there are a fair number of posts which are not getting reported by anyone. In the last week, about a half dozen or so warnings/infractions have been handed out by several moderators. These have come almost equally from different mods, not any one particular moderator.

But, most of these have been the result of posts which were sent to moderators using the 'REPORT POST' button.

Very few moderators have any real involvement with The Smackdown area, and in the last couple of weeks there has been a significant ramping up of efforts to bring a bit more civility to that area and to ensure that people are debating the formats, not just sniping at one another or saying one liners to draw conversations off topic. It's been a arguementative ploy for several users to not answer questions or deal with topics, but to nitpick and jab at others whenver information is presented they don't want to deal with.

This does occur on both sides from time to time and both sides deserve and receive fair treatment as far as I can tell. I certainly have encouraged all moderators to take part in that section and to help with moderation duties there and will continue to encourage them to do so.

I think when you look at the last year, where people were just degrading that section to a bunch of bickering back and forth with very little discussion, it is clear that something needed to change in there. If it turns out that all that occurs in Smackdown is bickering, and no real discussion, then it will be decided at some later point why that is occurring and how it will be dealt with.
Thanks for the feedback guys. It is appreciated. I don't feel comfortible telling anyone how to do their job. And that is not my intent posting here. I felt I have to express my opinion on the situation or give up a big part of my free time enjoyment. as I do enjoy spending time here chatting and debating with everyone. I always felt there was a bit of playing to be expected back and forth in smackdown. Especially when the room has smackdown in it's title.

The problem is I would get infracted for the most minor of things. I would then go on a spree of reporting the same kind of offences. Many much much worse. It's been insinuated that I was everything from a body building chick, a retard to an idiot. Just to give you examples. That behaviour was allowed to continue even after my many reports. All the while I'm getting infracted for very minor things. How do you think that comes off? I'm not saying I'm perfect. I know I have crossed the line on occasion. But anyone that has paid attention to my posting style knows I'm not the offensive type. treat me with respect and you will get the same from me. I can keep up with the best of them. But honestly I felt like I could never get away with what some of these guys were getting away with on a daily basis.

I hope you can understand the frustration. Anyway thanks for taking the time to listen and get involved. And thanks for your time.

Mal
  #10  
Old 10-13-2011, 07:27 PM
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Smackdown

Quote:
Main Entry: smackdown 1
Part of Speech: n
Definition: a severe beating or defeat; a decisive setback

Main Entry: smackdown 2
Part of Speech: n
Definition: a bitter contest; confrontation
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/smackdown

So maybe the HD SD Forum needs a new title and a new set of rules that conform with all the other non-SD forums here at HDD. If the above definitions are no longer acceptable or desireable, then a change should be made by the Forum owners.

My 2 cents on the subject
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