SD-DVD Upconverting Technology in Optical Media Players

[Rich86]

With the introduction of the Toshiba XD-E500, some renewed interest and discussion has been taking place about upconversion of SD-DVD's on high definition televisions. Unfortunately, that discussion is taking place in the "Smackdown" forum, where most everything turns into something other than a rational, useful sharing of experiences and information which might be useful to someone.

My personal interest in keeping some conversation going on this subject outside of Smackdown is NOT to advocate upconverting players as an alternative to true high definition starting at the source (ie. a blu-ray or hd-dvd disc). Rather, it is to learn and know more about what SD-DVD upconversion technology exists and how well it works regardless of the type of optical media player it is in. I am a long-time A/V addict, which means I have lots of movies and music on various types of media. I would like to maximize the PQ particularly of my SD-DVD collection to the greatest extent possible, given the expense associated with replacing all these SD-DVD's with blu-ray. Again, I would like to discourage comments denigrating the discussion because upconverting sd-dvd will never be as good as real high definition. I propose we all simply accept that as fact - and focus our discussion on what technologies do the best job of displaying our SD-DVD's upconverted on a high definition television, and what players have those best technologies implemented in them.

[CaptainCanuck]

My experiences:
Onkyo 606 receiver has an upconverting chip that is very very good.
Denon 2930 dvd player with reon chip is even better,best i've seen yet.
Sony bluray 300 player has pretty bad upconvert capabilities.
Toshiba a30 player is better than the blu ray but not as good as the first 2 i named.

[Rich86]

We (my wife and I) have a Sharp 46" 1080p lcd television. We've had it since the spring of 2007. The jump from our 27" Sony Trinitron to this TV was eye popping to say the least. We switched our cable from standard definition to high definition via a HD8300 DVR - and have never looked back. I added an external 500gb sata hard drive to the dvr to make sure I did not miss anything in high definition that I wanted to see while traveling on business. The JVC 9600 S-VHS vcr has not seen any action since then (although I do open the cabinet door and dust it occasionally . . .).

We also have a Sony 5 disc upconverting dvd player (model DVP-NC85B - 1080i via hdmi). The first time I watched a well mastered SD-DVD with this player on my new television, I was absolutely thrilled. I knew I had no need to get involved in HD-DVD or blu-ray since this was perfectly fine. I still use this player today as my primary upconverting player. It does fine. I cannot point to any specific or obvious flaws in its performance. But I know there are far better upconverting players available.

Last December, we got a HD-DVD player (Toshiba HD-A30). I picked up and installed a 3 way HDMI switch since my TV has only 2 hdmi inputs and they were being used (cable dvr + Sony upconvertor). The switch now has the Sony upconvertor and Toshiba hd-dvd player going through it. I popped in King Kong and stared - a bit in awe. I dug out my sd-dvd of King Kong and put it in the Sony. I queued them both to the same spot and started them both going, using the little remote for the hdmi switch to jump back and forth. Yeah - real high definition is better for sure (although my wife says "who cares"). But - a well mastered, anamorphic sd-dvd looks damn good upconverted. I also have a brand new HD-A35 stashed in a closet as a back-up, or becoming our primary player if I ever get a receiver that accepts hdmi bitstreaming (not in any hurry, since my Yamaha RX-V1 is a really excellent unit, although pre-hdmi connector vintage). I have not done any sd-dvd upconversion comparisons using it, but I assume its performance would be similar to the hd-a30.

I played around a little bit playing sd-dvd's upconverted on both the Sony and the HD-A30 - and I do believe the HD-A30 is definitely the better upconvertor of the 2 players. But I have not had that much occasion to make critical side by side comparisons (only a couple of combo hd-dvd's that were double dips so I could load up sd-dvd on both players and use the switch again). I have more combo hd-dvd's now, and could do more comparisons someday. I've also noticed the newer Sony 5 disc upconvertor model that replaces mine outputs 1080p.

My current practices: I do not use my HD-A30 to play sd-dvd's upconverted even though I know it does a somewhat better job than my Sony player, because I would just as soon restrict its use to my hd-dvd collection so the player lasts as long as possible. Since the Sony really does a decent job, I don't think of this as a big sacrifice. I find that I do not even play my older sd-dvd's that are not anamorphic any more because I can't stand to watch them. However, I am not someone who refuses to watch any sd-dvd's as I greatly enjoy my well-made anamorphic sd-dvd's played upconverted.

I would consider replacing my Sony with a sd-dvd player with significantly improved up converting capabilities. I plan to find a way to play around with that new Toshiba XD-E500 to see for myself what it does (or doesn't) do well. And a blu-ray player with better upconverting capabilities as compared to competing models would get an edge when I am ready to buy my first blu-ray player.

Sorry for the length of this - but I thought some background might be useful. I would love to hear and learn from others about their upconverting experiences with various players.

[Rich86]

Originally Posted by CaptainCanuck

My experiences:
Onkyo 606 receiver has an upconverting chip that is very very good.
Denon 2930 dvd player with reon chip is even better,best i've seen yet.
Sony bluray 300 player has pretty bad upconvert capabilities.
Toshiba a30 player is better than the blu ray but not as good as the first 2 i named.

I keep hearing the Reon chip is one of the best.
Do you happen to know what chip is in the receiver?
---------------------
another update: apparently the receiver uses Faroudja DCDi Edge for upscaling?
---------------------
update: wow _ I just looked up that Denon player - pricey little bugger, eh?
But I am a Denon fan - my cd player & cassette deck were also considered a bit pricey in their day - but they have lasted for a long time and still perform wonderfully.

[CaptainCanuck]

Originally Posted by Rich86

I keep hearing the Reon chip is one of the best.
Do you happen to know what chip is in the receiver?
---------------------
another update: apparently the receiver uses Faroudja DCDi Edge for upscaling?
---------------------
update: wow _ I just looked up that Denon player - pricey little bugger, eh?
But I am a Denon fan - my cd player & cassette deck were also considered a bit pricey in their day - but they have lasted for a long time and still perform wonderfully.

Yes it uses a faroudja chip. In the video controls you can chose to let a signal go straight thru the receiver or convert it to several other resolutions,one being 1080i .
I compared the denon to the receiver picture by switching the same movie from the denon back and forth between pass thru and 1080i processing .
The denon cost me about $800 Can but i have hundreds of s dvd's so i think it's worth it.
Supposedly denon is coming out with a new model this yr that will play 1080p.

[Rich86]

I read in another place that folks were suggesting the Toshiba XD-E500 had nothing special in it since it uses a Zoran chip for video upconverting, which has been around a while and used in lower priced players. But, according to an image posted, it is the Vaddis 9 chip, which sounds like it is fairly new and a bit more sophisticated than the older model chip. Does anyone know more about this chip or have some personal experiences with the XDE player to share with us?

[browny75]

Hi Rich - posted this link elsewhere to-day...seems to be a fair review of XDE vs a couple of other players, and another upconverter.

http://news.digitaltrends.com/talk-b...r-than-blu-ray

[Rich86]

Originally Posted by browny75

Hi Rich - posted this link elsewhere to-day...seems to be a fair review of XDE vs a couple of other players, and another upconverter.

http://news.digitaltrends.com/talk-b...r-than-blu-ray

Thanks for that link. It made for interesting reading. The reviewer sounds pretty convinced the XDE is a top notch upconverter, even though real high def is still better. He seems to see this player as a threat to blu-ray in that it could slow down adoption of blu-ray due to the cost of titles for those folks who don't necessarily demand the very best in their home theater viewing. My interest in upconverting players is more related to extending the enjoyable life of my many dvds and avoid double dipping well mastered anamorphic sd-dvd's in blu-ray if at all possible.
One comment that surprised me was his comment regarding rental blu-ray titles that would not play due to damage to the disc surface. He made it sound like sd-dvd titles are more resilient in that regard than blu-ray even given blu-rays "protective layer" we keep hearing about.
I'd like to find a retailer with a Toshioba XD-E500 hooked up on the showroom floor to look at and play with.

[Merlins]

The reviewer is Rob Enderle. He does have a history and even a own Wikipedia page. I would not call him a fair reviewer.

[thebat68]

I bought the XDE a few days ago and like i posted on the other thread. It is not HD but it blows away my Tosh A-35 and PS3. I own a lot of SDVD's and will not convert them all over to Blu. Too expensive. You will not be disappointed in this player. It does 1080p 24/fps and really makes the movies pop. I had a Tosh HDA1 and it beats this as well. My only coplaint is that it will take a 1:33 source and fill the screen, no matter the setting, therefore I will be watching my television shows on dvd on my A35 or PS3.

[Rich86]

Originally Posted by thebat68

I bought the XDE a few days ago and like i posted on the other thread. It is not HD but it blows away my Tosh A-35 and PS3. I own a lot of SDVD's and will not convert them all over to Blu. Too expensive. You will not be disappointed in this player. It does 1080p 24/fps and really makes the movies pop. I had a Tosh HDA1 and it beats this as well. My only coplaint is that it will take a 1:33 source and fill the screen, no matter the setting, therefore I will be watching my television shows on dvd on my A35 or PS3.

Have you contacted Toshiba about the aspect ratio problems with 1.33:1 video material? Toshiba has been pretty good about firmware updates on our hd-dvd players even well after they dropped the hd-dvd product line. I have to believe they would want to know and hopefully address problems reported by early buyers of the XDE series of players. Yeah, I know, "series" sounds hopeful for even more power and improvement coming down the road?

[thebat68]

Originally Posted by Rich86

Have you contacted Toshiba about the aspect ratio problems with 1.33:1 video material? Toshiba has been pretty good about firmware updates on our hd-dvd players even well after they dropped the hd-dvd product line. I have to believe they would want to know and hopefully address problems reported by early buyers of the XDE series of players. Yeah, I know, "series" sounds hopeful for even more power and improvement coming down the road?

No not yet. I read elsewhere that somebody else had the same problem. They would have to do a firmware update with a disc though, since there is no ethernet port as with our HD DVD Players.

[dsskid]

Originally Posted by browny75

Hi Rich - posted this link elsewhere to-day...seems to be a fair review of XDE vs a couple of other players, and another upconverter.

http://news.digitaltrends.com/talk-b...r-than-blu-ray

Sorry, not looking to piss anyone off or to flamebait, but I don't think that a person who is paid by Toshiba can give a fair assessment of their product.

Since Mr. Rob Enderle, who wrote the Digitaltrends review that you linked, is the same Mr. Rob Enderle who sits on the advisory councils for Lenovo, Toshiba, AMD, HP, Dell, Philips, Trusted Computing Group, and the Lifeboat Foundation; and considering that this is a Toshiba product, how could anyone honestly expect his review to be anything but biased?

http://www.enderlegroup.com/profile_rob.htm

[dsskid]

Originally Posted by thebat68

I bought the XDE a few days ago and like i posted on the other thread. It is not HD but it blows away my Tosh A-35 and PS3. I own a lot of SDVD's and will not convert them all over to Blu. Too expensive. You will not be disappointed in this player. It does 1080p 24/fps and really makes the movies pop. I had a Tosh HDA1 and it beats this as well. My only coplaint is that it will take a 1:33 source and fill the screen, no matter the setting, therefore I will be watching my television shows on dvd on my A35 or PS3.

Thank you for your review. I respect your opinion more than Mr. Enderle's.

[thebat68]

Here is a pic of a movie playing on the XDE.