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  1. #1

    Default 1080/24 at 48Hz, 96Hz, or 120Hz


    Whats the difference? Whats the good and bad about it? Admittedly I DON'T know everything, and this is one of the few things I can't understand. If 120Hz is the DESIRED LCD TV refresh, but a front projector I'm looking at does 1080/24 at 48Hz....will I be disappointed? Will there be blur? What the hell does it all mean?
  2. #2
    Movies are shot at 24 frames per second, but 24 refreshes per second by itself is not enough to remove flicker. Movies theatres show each frame twice giving a 48Hz refresh which is accepted by them (and what most people are therefore used to seeing) as good enough to remove flicker.

    Getting a display with a multiple of 24Hz capable means that you will see films in their "natural" 24 frames per second.

    Most DVD and Blu-ray players give you movies at 60 frames per second, with a 3-2 pulldown (one frame 3 times, the next one twice). Many Blu-ray players are now capable of providing 1080p24 instead of 1080p60.

    Just having a display refresh at a multiple of 24Hz doesn't mean that it is giving you a X-X even pulldown. Many 120Hz LCDs give you 6-4 not 5-5.

    Read this thread here to see which TVs properly display 1080p24.

    Note that although most 48-72-96-120 are great and show no flicker, the Panasonic plasmas have a problem and at the 48Hz they display many people see flicker. This is not true of all 48Hz displays.
    Panny PT-53X54 (CRT-RPTV)
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    KEF iQ1x2, iQ2, 2001.2x2
    Paradigm DSP-3100 (alas, the Scamp project has died )
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick240 View Post
    Movies are shot at 24 frames per second, but 24 refreshes per second by itself is not enough to remove flicker. Movies theatres show each frame twice giving a 48Hz refresh which is accepted by them (and what most people are therefore used to seeing) as good enough to remove flicker.

    Getting a display with a multiple of 24Hz capable means that you will see films in their "natural" 24 frames per second.

    Most DVD and Blu-ray players give you movies at 60 frames per second, with a 3-2 pulldown (one frame 3 times, the next one twice). Many Blu-ray players are now capable of providing 1080p24 instead of 1080p60.

    Just having a display refresh at a multiple of 24Hz doesn't mean that it is giving you a X-X even pulldown. Many 120Hz LCDs give you 6-4 not 5-5.

    Read this thread here to see which TVs properly display 1080p24.

    Note that although most 48-72-96-120 are great and show no flicker, the Panasonic plasmas have a problem and at the 48Hz they display many people see flicker. This is not true of all 48Hz displays.
    I feel so dumb after reading that post.

    Well said nonetheless.
  4. #4
    I worked at a movie theater, projection tech/projectionist/manager, and film is shot at 24 frames per second and shown 24 frames per second. There are no double frames. When things goto video, is where I get confused.

    So what you are saying is, as long as its a multiple of 24, it will be ok? 60 divided by 24 is 2.5...??? Whats up with that? A lot of standard LCD panels refresh at 60hz, is that where the pull down comes in? If so, why do 120hz TV's have pull down if 120 is divisible by 24?

    Should we all sell our crap and buy movie projectors just to keep this simple???
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Chickengas View Post
    I worked at a movie theater, projection tech/projectionist/manager, and film is shot at 24 frames per second and shown 24 frames per second. There are no double frames.
    The wheel infront of the projector has holes in it such that each frame is seen twice per second thereby giving at 48Hz refresh rate to avoid flicker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chickengas View Post
    When things goto video, is where I get confused.

    So what you are saying is, as long as its a multiple of 24, it will be ok? 60 divided by 24 is 2.5...??? Whats up with that? A lot of standard LCD panels refresh at 60hz, is that where the pull down comes in? If so, why do 120hz TV's have pull down if 120 is divisible by 24?
    To show 24 frame source at 60Hz you get 3:2 pulldown; one frame 3 times the next frame twice. This is how we have always been watching movies on our TVs until 24p capable Blu-ray players and 24p capable TVs have come along. As noted before, not all 120Hz TVs to an even pulldown; many do the standard 3:2 pulldown to 60Hz and then just double it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chickengas View Post
    Should we all sell our crap and buy movie projectors just to keep this simple???
    If the 3:2 pulldown effects have never bothered you then don't worry about it. 24p capable systems just give the opportunity for smoother movies; the number of 24p capable systems will likely increase.
    Panny PT-53X54 (CRT-RPTV)
    Yamaha RXV-1800B
    KEF iQ1x2, iQ2, 2001.2x2
    Paradigm DSP-3100 (alas, the Scamp project has died )
    Bell ExpressVu HD6100
    Tosh HD-A2

    waiting for
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  6. #6
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    Id like to learn more about this

    My PS3 is putting out 1080/24
    my tv is set to 120 hz

    At first it looked very weird, almost fake err i dont know how to explain it.
    Love it know though! - everything flows on screen - looks like im watch a soap!

    Now when i send the signal to my Optoma HD 65, should i change the out put of my ps3? turn 24hz off?
    Displays: Samsung LN46B610 LCD 46inch/Optoma hd65 projector 92inch
    Receiver: Marantz SR7002
    Amplifiers: Carver TFM-55x (Powering SL3's),NAD 2200 (Powering ML Cinema)
    Speakers: 7.1 System - Martin Logan Cinema center, Martin Logan SL3 towers, Polk FXiA4 surrounds, Polk RC65i rear surrounds, Martin Logan Grotto Sub

    :Toshiba A3/Toshiba A30/360 w/HD Drive
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  7. #7
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    ^^^
    Are you sure you don't have some sort of motion enhancer turned on? I know us guys don't like doing this but you might want to check your user manual against how your TV is configured and see if it's in a mode where motion enhancer software would be activated.
    Toshiba 55" 55HT1U LCD (1080p@24fps) w/Tivo HD, Harmony 880
    HDM Players: Toshiba HD-A30, Samsung BD-P2500 (wow! reon!)
    Onkyo TX-605SR, F Polk Monitor 50s bi-amped, C CS1, Yamaha sur & sub
    X-Box 360, Wii, DreamCast, DS
    HDM Count - Hopless
    Wii: 0774-4826-1902, Disney: Guest13971, WB: crazzeto Uni: Locutus4657 Sony: crazzeto

    *view pictures of my home theater and movies (out dated)
  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazzeto View Post
    ^^^
    Are you sure you don't have some sort of motion enhancer turned on? I know us guys don't like doing this but you might want to check your user manual against how your TV is configured and see if it's in a mode where motion enhancer software would be activated.
    I have Cinema mode on and True motion - low on the Lg scarlett
    Displays: Samsung LN46B610 LCD 46inch/Optoma hd65 projector 92inch
    Receiver: Marantz SR7002
    Amplifiers: Carver TFM-55x (Powering SL3's),NAD 2200 (Powering ML Cinema)
    Speakers: 7.1 System - Martin Logan Cinema center, Martin Logan SL3 towers, Polk FXiA4 surrounds, Polk RC65i rear surrounds, Martin Logan Grotto Sub

    :Toshiba A3/Toshiba A30/360 w/HD Drive
    120 titles

    Playstation
    104 titles
  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by cpus456 View Post
    I have Cinema mode on and True motion - low on the Lg scarlett
    According to the Sticky thread at the top of the Home Theater Gear section, yours only works right

    "LG 42LG60 (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Truemotion is off and Real Cinema is on)"
    Panny PT-53X54 (CRT-RPTV)
    Yamaha RXV-1800B
    KEF iQ1x2, iQ2, 2001.2x2
    Paradigm DSP-3100 (alas, the Scamp project has died )
    Bell ExpressVu HD6100
    Tosh HD-A2

    waiting for
    ---------
    Oppo BDP-83
  10. #10
    The wheel infront of the projector has holes in it such that each frame is seen twice per second thereby giving at 48Hz refresh rate to avoid flicker.
    Well, not to argue, but projectors have shutters not holes. One blade to four blade, if the blade isn't timed properly, you get flicker (strobing). At the speed that the blade turns, its very possible it shoots each frame onto the screen twice per second, never really gave it that much thought. Getting back to pulldown, 1080p/24 is going to be noticably better then? What kind of problems are seen with pulldown? Also, whats 4:4:4? This is good info to have..thanks!
  11. #11
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    There's some jutter associated with 3:2 pull down since it doesn't match films 24fps. Honestly I've never had a big problem with it on my toshiba dlp (720P), but I also haven't had an oppertunity to view *proper* 5:5 pull down either. basically when running correctly the only difference is some slight jutter is eliminated, how big a difference that makes to your experience will depend greatly on how sensative you are to that jutter.
    Toshiba 55" 55HT1U LCD (1080p@24fps) w/Tivo HD, Harmony 880
    HDM Players: Toshiba HD-A30, Samsung BD-P2500 (wow! reon!)
    Onkyo TX-605SR, F Polk Monitor 50s bi-amped, C CS1, Yamaha sur & sub
    X-Box 360, Wii, DreamCast, DS
    HDM Count - Hopless
    Wii: 0774-4826-1902, Disney: Guest13971, WB: crazzeto Uni: Locutus4657 Sony: crazzeto

    *view pictures of my home theater and movies (out dated)
  12. #12
    I'd have to know what it is in order to notice it. Whats proper 5:5? If something is being shown at 24fps at 48Hz, 2:1 or 1:2 sounds logical. I don't understand 5:5 or 4:4:4.
  13. #13
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    I'm not an expert with pull down tech, but my understanding is that 5:5 = first frame shown 5 times in a sec, second frame shown 5 times in a second. 3:2 = frame 1 shown 3 times in a second, frame 2 shown twice in that same second. Or something like that? Not sure really... I couldn't speak for 4:4:4...
    Toshiba 55" 55HT1U LCD (1080p@24fps) w/Tivo HD, Harmony 880
    HDM Players: Toshiba HD-A30, Samsung BD-P2500 (wow! reon!)
    Onkyo TX-605SR, F Polk Monitor 50s bi-amped, C CS1, Yamaha sur & sub
    X-Box 360, Wii, DreamCast, DS
    HDM Count - Hopless
    Wii: 0774-4826-1902, Disney: Guest13971, WB: crazzeto Uni: Locutus4657 Sony: crazzeto

    *view pictures of my home theater and movies (out dated)
  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chickengas View Post
    I'd have to know what it is in order to notice it. Whats proper 5:5? If something is being shown at 24fps at 48Hz, 2:1 or 1:2 sounds logical. I don't understand 5:5 or 4:4:4.
    If you really want to see what frame judder looks like, then put up any movie you have and go to the credits and watch for the "jump" which is the pulldown artifact.
    "If you can't dazzle them with brillance . . . baffle them with Bull*&^%" - W C Fields
  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by cpus456 View Post
    I have Cinema mode on and True motion - low on the Lg scarlett
    turn the true motion off and enjoy
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