Onkyo TX-SR605/SR805

[Kenshiro]

This is an issue with how the audio is encoded. If it is 'Advanced encoded'... the disc will not allow the audio to be passed as 'raw' (undecoded) data... the player must decode the signal and send it to the receiver. MOST HD DVD titles with DD+ are encoded in 'Advanced mode'.

Just because a unit has HDMI 1.3 does not mean it will support all of the 1.3 features.

HERE is a link to an article at AVS.



Jed,
There is a typo in the main article... and it actually made me say "Wait... what?!" The '4' should be an 'R'.

That is interesting, if this is true it sounds like something that can be fixed with firmware updates. I'm a little skeptical about the whole thing though until I hear that someone has actually tested it out with one of these new receivers.

Wouldn't this make these new "next-gen" receivers irrelevent before they are even released? And why would Onkyo even bother to include advanced audio decoding if there is no way for the receiver to get undecoded advanced audio?

How could they have even tested the receivers themselves to verify that they do have DTS HD and TrueHD decoding capabilities?

[airsickmoth]

The discs themselves prohibit all players from outputting a raw undecoded DTS-HD or DolbyTrue bitstream. The reason for this is simple. All disc mix sounds from various sources.

For example, when you are in the menu, while the movie is playing, and you push a button you hear that click sound. Well the player decodes the movies DolbyTrue track, and then mixes a click noise onto the uncompressed PCM.

Same with an audio commentary. In old DVD, when you switch audio tracks to listen to the director. It was a whole seperate track. They record the director, and mix the movie audio of that point with his voice in the studio. HD-DVD allows the voice of the director to be overlayed on top of the movie's audio track. So the player is decoding the DTrue turning down the audio of the movie, and decoding the commentary audio and mixing it in PCM.

Same goes for the U-Control stuff on discs. The audio of the movie is lowered and mixed with Picture in Picture audio.

What's going to be cool is I imagine in a few years that a viewer will be able to change the volume of the features themselves. So if I want to listen to a quiet commentary and loud movie sounds (the opposite of how it is done on DVD), I can! The audio is mixed on the fly by the player, so I could alter any of the streams via the DSPs in the player.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a player will not output multiple raw bitstreams to be decoded simultaneously and mixed by the amp. And if you say why not decode mix then re-encode in the player and send it? Well you just lost the whole point of raw bitstreams. If your player is good enough to decode it once, then once is enough.

The only way a raw bitstream would make it to your receiver is if the disc is authored to allow it. So it is conceivable that a enthusiast disc, like a new line of Sony Superbit Bluray discs, could allow you to decode the bitstream in the amp. But you would lose the ability to use any special features at all while doing that.

The benefits of HDMI 1.3 are "Deepcolor" and audio/video sync. Deepcolor, on this model, supports 36bit color. That's more color than your eye can even see. And I read that HDMI supports time frame information. So both the audio and video will be encoded with times, that your receiver can then sync to make sure one is not lagging behind the other due to decoding difficulties. Or you can say that your speakers are naturally 1ms behind your display, so sync it in that regard. So no more lip syncing issues.

[Kenshiro]

The discs themselves prohibit all players from outputting a raw undecoded DTS-HD or DolbyTrue bitstream. The reason for this is simple. All disc mix sounds from various sources.

So you are saying the problem lies in the discs themselves and not the players? I wonder how could Onkyo have tested the advanced audio decoding functions of the receiver without any way of getting an undecoded bitstream signal?

[janhm]

From what I understand there will be no benefit from the 605 over an HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 amp at this point. That could change so I would recommend buying a 1.3 receiver when you do buy, I just wouldn't recommend buying one to upgrade an existing HDMI amp yet.

ok, sounds good... right now I have no HDMI capable reciever. so the 605 would be a nice addition to my setup.. if it sounds good, that is.

[JU1CYFRU1T]

That is interesting, if this is true it sounds like something that can be fixed with firmware updates. I'm a little skeptical about the whole thing though until I hear that someone has actually tested it out with one of these new receivers.

Wouldn't this make these new "next-gen" receivers irrelevent before they are even released? And why would Onkyo even bother to include advanced audio decoding if there is no way for the receiver to get undecoded advanced audio?

How could they have even tested the receivers themselves to verify that they do have DTS HD and TrueHD decoding capabilities?

So you are saying the problem lies in the discs themselves and not the players? I wonder how could Onkyo have tested the advanced audio decoding functions of the receiver without any way of getting an undecoded bitstream signal?

The 'problem' is indeed in the disc, but it's not a problem... it a choice. There is no firmware update to fix the issue, because it's the way the discs were made.

As to your second question, all Onkyo would need is a disc that was not encoded in 'Advanced' mode. It's that simple. As a CE company, I'm 1000% sure that Dolby and DTS would have been more than happy to supply them with a demo disc for QC checks.

[JU1CYFRU1T]

Now... let's clear up some confusion.

If you are using any player on the market NOW... there are some issues to understand.

First, the PS3 is not currently a HDMI 1.3 device. It has the 1.3 hardware, but it is going to require a firmware update to utilize all of the features. But enough about that.

For those with 'lower end' players (like me with the HD-A1)... you will still be able to get HD audio over HDMI... but the receiver is not going to be the component in your system that decodes the audio. All HD bitstreams are decoded by the player, and sent as high def (rez) LPCM to the receiver. You are still getting the HD (and sometimes lossless) audio from the disc, but it is not going to be decoded by your receiver.

The major promlem with this, is going to be whether your player will decode certain formats (like the HD-A1 not supporting DTS MA)... but as new players come to market, that is going to become less of an issue.

[Cochise]

From what I understand there will be no benefit from the 605 over an HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 amp at this point. That could change so I would recommend buying a 1.3 receiver when you do buy, I just wouldn't recommend buying one to upgrade an existing HDMI amp yet.

From what I understand, there's no advantage of the 605 over my 6 yr. old receiver with no HDMI - because I have the XA1 and use the 5.1 analog outputs for the player to decode TrueHD and pass it out as PCM over the analog. From what I'm reading about this mess of players not being able to read DTS HD-MA and pass it out to the receiver for decoding for various reasons, MA isn't worth the hassle.

Using AVS's Tier Systems listing, I find there's a very limited number of HD DVD of titles using it.

EDIT: I noticed a post on AVS that Feetastic, who does the Tier ratings had got it wrong - The Weinstein / Genius releases do NOT have DTS HD-MA, they have Dolby Digital Plus. So it seems no North American HD DVD titles have DTS HD-MA. The European Studio Canal releases are the only HD DVD titles to have HD-MA.


And Studio Canal has use MA for titles in Europe:
The Pianist
La Haine
Total Recall
Rambo:

It seems like it's more of a problem for Blu-ray - many of the Fox titles are released in HD-MA :
Kingdom of Heaven
Ice Age
League of Extraordinary Gentlemen
X-Men 3
The Transporter
Transporter 2
Flyboys
Fantastic 4
Flight of the Phoenix
Courage Under Fire
Alien Vs. Predator
Night at the Museum
Speed
Behind Enemy Lines

So, as I'm understanding all this, there's no HD DVD or BD player out there that can currently get the MA audio from these titles and send it to the 605 - or any HDMI 1.3 receiver with DTS HD-MA - for decoding?

Well, I've been prepared to just sit back and pass on the 605 and enjoy TrueHD on my perfectly good 6 yr. old receiver through multi channel analog. But, I couldn't leave well enough alone - I decided to go dual format and picked up a PS3 - with no multi channel analog output. As I understand it all I can get is 2 channel output on the LPCM encoded BD titles through digital optical output, but 5.1 output on DD+ and DTS titles (just the DTS "core" on the MA titles).

So, no I'm debating whether it's worth it to go for the 605, or just settle for any receiver with HDMI.

[dajohn29]

Better to go 605, be future proof. I would never buy a product that I know is obsolete the minute I open the box.

[Cochise]

This is a good point and your right. As long as your player outputs multi channel analog you won't see an advantage over HDMI 1.3. I also used the multi channel analog inputs on my old receiver with my HDA1 but like you once I got a PS3 I had to get HDMI for lossless.

BTW... I bought the 604 a few months ago (and love it ) but would recommend the 605 over the 604 since it may be beneficial at some point to have HDMI 1.3.

Thanks. J&R is still taking the pre-orders for the 605 @ $399, so I pre-ordered this morning. The clerk had no info on when they expect them. Hope it's soon.

[rayfundora]

I got my (Onkyo TX-SR605) today!!!!!! CRUTCHFIELD has them in stock. You can order it in black or siliver.

[doctornd]

...As long as your player outputs multi channel analog you won't see an advantage over HDMI 1.3...

I am sorry, but this is not necessarily the case. Not all receivers with 5.1 analog inputs have ADC's (analog to digital converters) which would allow some EQ functions and bass management (crossover, etc.). Unless your receiver with 5.1 inputs specifically states that it has ADC's, then all it is doing is amplifying the signal coming in.

With 5.1 coming through the HDMI, aside from it being purely digital, there is less conversion involved and it makes it possible for the receiver to apply crossover settings, etc. to the signal.

[docmanjay2]

i just placed and order through amazon for the 805 with black face....from jr music $899 no tax or shipping this morning and i just got an email conforming it has shipped out i,m show the deliver date at my house monday the 11th....sweet can't wait what a steal

[rayfundora]

I got my TX-SR605 last week on CRUTCHFIELD.OCM. Here is the deal with the Audio:

The Onkyo TX-SR605 comes with HDMI 1.3. The following are the Supported audio formats using HDMI:

- 2-channel linear PCM (32-192 kHz, 16/20/24 bit)
- Multichannel linear PCM (7.1 ch, 32-192 kHz)
- Bitstream (Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS, DTS-HD High Resolution Audio, DTS-HD Master Audio)

[shockemags]

I got my TX-SR605 last week on CRUTCHFIELD.OCM. Here is the deal with the Audio:

The Onkyo TX-SR605 comes with HDMI 1.3. The following are the Supported audio formats using HDMI:

- 2-channel linear PCM (32-192 kHz, 16/20/24 bit)
- Multichannel linear PCM (7.1 ch, 32-192 kHz)
- Bitstream (Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS, DTS-HD High Resolution Audio, DTS-HD Master Audio)

Awesome. But I have a question...

This is prefaced with this is solely for my personal situation...

I am getting a 720p HDTV, HD-A2, Polk Audio (Starting with Front Towers, Center, and Sub... eventually add rears), PS2, XBOX (360?), will be used for Daily TV, movies, music, and occasional gaming.

I am on a tight budget and I have been suggested the 604 over the 605. I understand the "future proof" argument but have been told since non of the current HD-DVD players can let receiver decode and with my budget in mind... Would it be better to put the couple hundred I'd save by getting the 604 on speakers or the 605 will make my system that much better?

Thanks.

[dajohn29]

The 604 is pretty much the same in terms of decoding. Both can only do TrueHD and Master Audio at 5.1. The only difference is PCM 7.1 on the 605, but I don't think there are any BDs that are 7.1. Go with the 604, no difference. If you want better than 604, go 805, since it can do 7.1 next gen audio.