ha, a bitstream vs lpcm test

[rded]

Originally Posted by crazzeto

That said, with a high enough sample rate it really doesn't matter. 24/48 still leaves some room for improvement, but that doesn't mean that it isn't excellent. Maybe one of these days we'll get 24/96 lossless.

We may get it IF: the studios start recording them at that bit rate. On the downside, our current equipment let alone ears may not be sensitive enough for this...

[MrAngles]

Originally Posted by Mase

I would read up on that if I were you, Pule-Code Modulation is considered a lossless compress method..

Could you show me something stating that? I have never heard that, and can't find anything stating that PCM is anything other than digitization or digital storage of audio. What would you be compressing it from? Analog audio can't be measured in gigabytes.

Originally Posted by Mase

The fact of the matter is that someone stated PCM is exactly what the studio intended you to hear bit for bit, well that is and isnt true, since you cant represent a full analog sound wave with PCM or any other digital codec.. The fact that you even state in your own post that what is being lost from taking an analog signal and mastering it to a digital representation is something we humans can not discern spells it out for all of us..

No one stated that, all that I said was that lossless codecs such as Dolby True-HD and DTS-HD Master Audio supposedly offer a bit for bit reproduction of the master, specifically referring of course to the digital master, as nothing can possibly represent an analog recording "bit for bit" as there are no bits in an analog recording whatsoever. "What the studio intended for you to hear" is not measured in bits, however, when they create a digital master for use in theater and home playback, that is not only "what the studio intended for you to hear," but it is the only thing you could ever hear unless you are in a theater that doesn't use digital audio, which means they don't even offer 5.1 sound.

[Da Man]

You can do 6 channel analog on 70mm film.
I can throw SDDS into the mix. SDDS can do 8 channels so you can say we will never get a copy of the master of these movies.

[Mase]

Originally Posted by MrAngles

Could you show me something stating that? I have never heard that, and can't find anything stating that PCM is anything other than digitization or digital storage of audio. What would you be compressing it from? Analog audio can't be measured in gigabytes.
No one stated that, all that I said was that lossless codecs such as Dolby True-HD and DTS-HD Master Audio supposedly offer a bit for bit reproduction of the master, specifically referring of course to the digital master, as nothing can possibly represent an analog recording "bit for bit" as there are no bits in an analog recording whatsoever. "What the studio intended for you to hear" is not measured in bits, however, when they create a digital master for use in theater and home playback, that is not only "what the studio intended for you to hear," but it is the only thing you could ever hear unless you are in a theater that doesn't use digital audio, which means they don't even offer 5.1 sound.

I went and confused myself which led me to spout out incorrect information, my bad... LPCM is a Non Compression Format, it is DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD(and of course others) that are lossless compression methods..


However the latter part of your argument does not hold up very well, the Studio who has the original source material are not the same engineers who author the Blu-Rays.. So you dont actually know if we are hearing what is intended to be heard, we all know how a studio or sound engineers of an HD disc can screw up a good film, either from the video or audio side.. Also it has been stated that whether its PCM or a lossless compression does not mean it is bit for bit the master (Digital Master) PCM can be down rezzed to a lower bit rate or not sampled properly, add to that DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD lose data during the compression process, so they are not actually bit for bit..

I stated earlier that there is only a very small percentage of theaters that are fully digital capable, so 8 out of 10 times you watch a movie in a theater, what you are hearing is from an analog source, which can be multi channel.. Even theaters that are digital does not gaurantee the movie you are viewing is going to be. The brand new Harkins Cine Capri by me is fully digital but when I watched "The Increcible Hulk" it was stated before the film that it was not presented in a digital format.. The Cine Capri is AZs largest theater screen and one of THE largest digital projectors in the USA, soo before every show they always welcome you to the Cine Capri and tell you about the theater and the movie and how it is presented..

[GardenVariety]

Baraka had a DTS MA 5.1 24/96.

[crazzeto]

wow... doesn't get much better than that. Now I just wonder how big a difference it actually makes to the average ear.

[Mase]

Originally Posted by crazzeto

wow... doesn't get much better than that. Now I just wonder how big a difference it actually makes to the average ear.

Likely none

Its more for the person that wants full spec content whether there is a discernable difference or not.. Also it will take more than just an average ear to hear a difference, it will also require the use of ridiculous audio gear(studio quality gear) to take full advantage of said track..

[GardenVariety]

Coming from a music recording background there are slight discernible differences (for me at least) in the upper register at higher volumes.

[crazzeto]

Originally Posted by Mase

Likely none

Its more for the person that wants full spec content whether there is a discernable difference or not.. Also it will take more than just an average ear to hear a difference, it will also require the use of ridiculous audio gear(studio quality gear) to take full advantage of said track..

I'm not willing to say none, there's a reason why so called audiophiles prefered DVD-A & SACD, it's because these techs offered very high resolution audio like this.

But I do kind of doubt that the average consumer will really hear the benifits, still I think that for big titles it would make sense for studios to consider going lossless 24/96 if they can. Probably 80% of people out there will get no real benifit, but for those people that do it would be nice.

[Mase]

Originally Posted by GardenVariety

Coming from a music recording background there are slight discernible differences (for me at least) in the upper register at higher volumes.

Music recording background, that sounds interesting, please go on


You also have very good equipment, so hearing a difference with your gear would be easier than someone running low to mid end speakers off of an AVR amp..

I know once I picked up my Music Hall a25.2 for my 2 channel setup and paired it with my RBH 41-se's I started hearing things in recordings I never knew were there.. I quickly came to realize that not all CDs are mastered equally and that even ripping CDs to WMP lossless did not always help.. I sometimes wish I never went this route, but than when you do hear a quality LP it reminds you of why you spend soo much money on this hobby..

[Mase]

Originally Posted by crazzeto

I'm not willing to say none, there's a reason why so called audiophiles prefered DVD-A & SACD, it's because these techs offered very high resolution audio like this.

But I do kind of doubt that the average consumer will really hear the benifits, still I think that for big titles it would make sense for studios to consider going lossless 24/96 if they can. Probably 80% of people out there will get no real benifit, but for those people that do it would be nice.

Yea self proclaimed audiophiles will likely hear the slightest of differences, but those are not average ears my friend.. You know for how much im into audio I must be partially deaf because I try the little tips and tricks to get the most out of a given setup and I litterally hear no difference.. The only time I hear a difference is when I change the Speakers and or Amp..

[GardenVariety]

Originally Posted by Mase

Music recording background, that sounds interesting, please go on


You also have very good equipment, so hearing a difference with your gear would be easier than someone running low to mid end speakers off of an AVR amp..

I know once I picked up my Music Hall a25.2 for my 2 channel setup and paired it with my RBH 41-se's I started hearing things in recordings I never knew were there.. I quickly came to realize that not all CDs are mastered equally and that even ripping CDs to WMP lossless did not always help.. I sometimes wish I never went this route, but than when you do hear a quality LP it reminds you of why you spend soo much money on this hobby..

If you are serious I had my own production studio from about age 19-25. Much of what I recorded was at 24bits 96khz. Also, when you use symphonic programs like East West it does make a big difference in the sounds of violins, cellos, pianos, etc... The only problem when recording in that high of a resolution is the power and space it takes but that's a whole different issue

I think alot of my problem is that I can hear the smallest things in recordings and soundtracks. Something that really bothers me is the clipping out of dynamic levels in dialogue on DD 5.1 soundtracks. I just watched Shawshank on Blu Ray and no one else seems to be able to hear the vocal tracks clipping but me. It's really a curse sometimes because I am never really happy unless I am listening to LPCM, DTS MA or Dolby Tru (to a lesser extent).

[Mase]

Originally Posted by GardenVariety

If you are serious I had my own production studio from about age 19-25. Much of what I recorded was at 24bits 96khz. Also, when you use symphonic programs like East West it does make a big difference in the sounds of violins, cellos, pianos, etc... The only problem when recording in that high of a resolution is the power and space it takes but that's a whole different issue

I think alot of my problem is that I can hear the smallest things in recordings and soundtracks. Something that really bothers me is the clipping out of dynamic levels in dialogue on DD 5.1 soundtracks. I just watched Shawshank on Blu Ray and no one else seems to be able to hear the vocal tracks clipping but me. It's really a curse sometimes because I am never really happy unless I am listening to LPCM, DTS MA or Dolby Tru (to a lesser extent).

I was and am 100% serious, that is awesome and especially at that young of an age.. What sort of stuff were you recording?

Ahh, so you have the curse of the Golden ear it seems that most people think of it as a gift and a curse..

[GardenVariety]

Well I am only 26 right now so I'm going to hold onto that "young" thing as long as I can. I started playing music at 14, so I started recording "band" music. I recorded mostly rock, hardcore, blues stuff like that. I then progressed to adding more stringed instruments and piano and then combining the two. I still play classical guitar but don't really record much anymore.

[Mase]

Originally Posted by GardenVariety

Well I am only 26 right now so I'm going to hold onto that "young" thing as long as I can. I started playing music at 14, so I started recording "band" music. I recorded mostly rock, hardcore, blues stuff like that. I then progressed to adding more stringed instruments and piano and then combining the two. I still play classical guitar but don't really record much anymore.

26!! Wow you are 2 years OLDER than I am haha , j/k man, your only as young as you feel... Seriously though that is quite an accomplishment for somone at any age, let alone someone in their teens!