HDTVs with 120Hz, is it really necessary?

[rded]

Does anyone own or have seen 120Hz HDTVs recently? I personally think that it makes the picture quality look "FAKE" . What do you think?

[irrob]

Please elaborate on what "fake" means. I'm curious. I would think it's a benefit, especially on tracking shots which suffer the judder on LCD's.

[IceNine]

Does anyone own or have seen 120Hz HDTVs recently? I personally think that it makes the picture quality look "FAKE" . What do you think?

I'll find out soon... I just ordered a new Mitsubishi WD73833 and they are 120hz.

[IceNine]

Here's a little marketing stuff about 120hz:


120Hz: The Sweetheart Of The Industry
Don't let yourself be distracted by the doodads offered in place of real progress. I shouldn't be saying this -- I am in advertising after all -- but the odds are you don't need a 108-inch flat panel TV on your 120-inch living room wall. What you do need, whether you realize it or not, is an HDTV with 120Hz image processing for quicker frame rate conversion and blazing fast pixel response times.

Unconvinced? Here's the facts: Film is shot at 24 frames per second. And just about every movie disc you can buy is encoded at that speed. DVD, HD DVD, Blu-ray - all 24 frames per second. Trouble is, television programming runs at 30 frames per second and most TVs conform to that standard. See the problem? Fitting that 24-frame content onto a 30-frame screen isn't a seamless process. You can't divide 24 by 30 evenly -- so video engineers fill in the gaps. Known as 3:2 pulldown, this conversion process spreads out 24 frames into 30 by placing one frame on the screen three times and the next one after that two times, and repeating this pattern again and again and again? which sometimes causes the stutter and other visual artifacts that can ruin the illusion of losing yourself in a great movie. To further complicate things, some video content is recorded at 60 fps, such as certain modern special effects and computer animations (think Matrix), which tricks the 3:2 pulldown process and trips up transmission of the intended on-screen image.

24, 30, 60? Are you beginning to see the beauty of 120Hz? Grade school math tells you that 120 is a multiple of 24 and 30 and 60. 120Hz image processing shows 120 frames per second, allowing these TVs to reproduce unconverted, evenly extrapolated 24 fps movie, 30 fps television, and 60 fps special effects programming, without the stutter and other clutter of 3:2 pulldown. To return to the top, a bigger TV is not necessarily a better TV. Without 120Hz image processing, some things will certainly be bigger, but they'll still be just as blurry -- especially on-screen text. Imagine missing the get-away car's license plate number when watching a murder mystery or not catching the content of those top-secret government documents in a super suspenseful spy flick. Maybe it's as simple as not being able to read the jersey of the player who made the interception during the big game. No matter what the instance, your TV's instant of indecision just cost you the crucial bit of information and lost you to the rewind once again. Don't bother with bigger. Go with better, faster, clearer. Go with 120Hz.

Guess what? Conveniently enough, the Mitsubishi Diamond 833 Series offers 120Hz. They call their version Smooth120Hz, which matters not at all. What matters is that it doubles the amount of frames from 60fps to 120fps and does it the right way by using real-time calculation of every single frame of video to create entire new frames of information. The results are spectacular. See for yourself. How? If you look in the upper right corner of your screen, you'll see a little grey "button" in a field of green. It reads "add to cart." I think you know the right thing to do.

[Coaler]

I haven't seen a 120Hz TV but my boss was recently discussing this with me. He went into BB and was looking at some and said he found the same thing. They look fake and i believe he used the word plasticy. I can't comment on it as i have not bothered seeing them but i intend to soon.

[IceNine]

I haven't seen a 120Hz TV but my boss was recently discussing this with me. He went into BB and was looking at some and said he found the same thing. They look fake and i believe he used the word plasticy. I can't comment on it as i have not bothered seeing them but i intend to soon.

Perhaps the picture is too perfect... no artificial anything? No, for all intents and purposes, invisible flicker... no slight stutters on panning shots... none of the problems of conversion.

I am not sure, but I have seen the set that I purchased in action and it looks absolutely perfect and incredible to boot.

[Icy Red]

The demos I've seen in stores just don't look natural at all... it almost looks like frames are missing. The PQ is stunning, but any movement just looks wrong.

I'll continue to take a good look at these in store, but so far I'm not impressed at all.

[Beast551]

Having spent quite a bit of time with both Sony's XBR4's and Samsung's 71 Series lcds I have to admit that at first I was completely put off by their respective De-judder motion enhancers, but in time it has grown on me slightly (and I appreciate the fact that its defeatable.)

The best way I can think to describe it beyond fake (which still fits) is compare it to a poor compositing job, somehow the foreground and back just don't blend as you think they should. Now this does seem to make the picture "pop", but it just seems unnatural. There are a few scenario's where I might like it though such as CGI animated features where it just looks downright 3D, and as CNET referenced in one of their reviews a series like Planet Earth with its long slow camera movements.

[pat00139]

It takes a bit of getting used to, but on some TVs, like the Sony XBR4, it looks really nice. The Samsung xx71 TVs do look a bit funny, but like Beast said, you get used to it. The movements seem a bit faster, but that's because of the way the video chip processes the information. It actually looks a lot smoother than regular, 60Hz sets.

Personally, I'm like the way the Samsung XX69 sets process the picture, but that might just be me.

[Firefly]

I bought the Mitsubishi WD73833 and have had it for two weeks now. My last TV was a Pioneer Elite Pro710HD. After trying it both ways for a while, I run the Smooth120HZ feature. It does make the picture look better overall and fast motion (like watching football or action movies) is handled better.

Like any new TV, you have to get used to the fact that the display is different. I can tell you that the PQ is spectacular on this TV once you get everything set the way you like it.

[MrFalconHD]

The best way I can describe it, is that on film based content, the image moves more like video than film. It's kind of distracting to say the least. I think it's the interpolation and the frames being repeated upwards of 5 times.

[Beast551]

I think it's the interpolation and the frames being repeated upwards of 5 times.

Now, not to nitpick Falcon but the whole idea behind frame interpolation is that the processor actually judges the changes between two successive frames and basically creates a hybrid frame. It is in fact these new frames that create the motion smoothing effect, if it were merely a repetition algorithm you honestly wouldn't be able to tell the difference (unless its a 24fps source that was never altered, in which case there would be an advantage between 60 and 120hz, but IceNine already did a good job of explaining why.)

[Irishman]

Perhaps the picture is too perfect... no artificial anything? No, for all intents and purposes, invisible flicker... no slight stutters on panning shots... none of the problems of conversion.

I am not sure, but I have seen the set that I purchased in action and it looks absolutely perfect and incredible to boot.

Yeah, in my BBY we've got a Samsuung 52" model showing a side-by-side comp shot of the feature enabled and turned off. It takes the regular store feed and does its magic. It's dramatic the difference it makes. What it goes to show is how much inferior motion tracking LCD tvs have been producing up til now.

[mrkiller]

I went to Future Shop last night and there was a Sony XBR4 (120hz) playing Transformers (HD DVD), the picture was amazing but the motion didnt feel like a "movie", it was really unnatural. the picture was smoother but the movements (especially camera) area FAST! it looks kinda funny.

Im sure sports will look amazing on 120hz but not movies

Im actually happy that I didnt purchase a 120hz tv!

[TheGreenDude]

I went to Future Shop last night and there was a Sony XBR4 (120hz) playing Transformers (HD DVD), the picture was amazing but the motion didnt feel like a "movie", it was really unnatural. the picture was smoother but the movements (especially camera) area FAST! it looks kinda funny.

Im sure sports will look amazing on 120hz but not movies

Im actually happy that I didnt purchase a 120hz tv!

What good do you think it would do for sports over the air at 30 FPS on a 60 Hz vs 120 Hz panel? Either case, each frame is shown exactly 1/30th of a second. 120 Hz allows you to still watch that 30 FPS material as intended, as well as movies where each real frame is now shown as 1/24th of a second instead of the 3:2 method. (fyi above, Sony's 120 Hz systems do NOT do the 5:5 method with Motion Enhancer on, see other thread).