Displays that support 1080p/24 signal at multiplies of the original frame rate

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by supra2jzgte

Right now, I have my PS3 to force 24Hz/24p for BD playback ON.

My TV says, Input is: 1920x1080p

Vertical: 24Hz

I do notice some difference in motion, no blur. When I put it back to 60Hz, there is a slight blur. Not much of a difference.

How can I tell if it is doing TRUE 24P???

Is my TV reconverting it back to 1080p/60Hz?

The Samsung LNT-4061F you own will accept a 1080P/24 signal and convert it to 60HZ using a 3:2 pulldown process. Even though your display does not refresh 1080P/24 material at multiplies of the original frame it sounds like you still get a better picture quality when your PS3 BLU-RAY player is set to 1080P/24 versus 1080P/60. The reason for this is your display most likely has a better 3:2 pulldown circuitry when conveting 1080P/24 material to 60HZ compared to the PS3 BLU-RAY player doing the conversion to 60HZ.
Your TV like most others only tells you what the signal is coming into it and not the actual refresh rate of the display.

[SaintNick912]

Is there any info on what the Samsung DLP xx89s (mine is 6189s) is doing when fed a 24p signal from the PS3? The display says 1920x1080@24hz but I'm not sure how that is achieved. The set shouldn't be listed on the first post as it doesn't "support" 24p input, the PS3's forced mode must be used.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by SaintNick912

Is there any info on what the Samsung DLP xx89s (mine is 6189s) is doing when fed a 24p signal from the PS3? The display says 1920x1080@24hz but I'm not sure how that is achieved. The set shouldn't be listed on the first post as it doesn't "support" 24p input, the PS3's forced mode must be used.

When the 1080P/24 on mode and auto mode is used on the PS3 it will only output 1080P/24 if the BLU-RAY is encoded in 1080P/24 and the display supports 1080P/24. BLU-RAY games and documentary’s sometimes will output 1080P/60. All the on and auto mode does is allow the PS3 to output 1080P/24 as long as the source material is encoded in 1080P/24. On some dispalys even in the on mode the PS3 will switch to 60HZ if it detects total signal loss in the handshacking over HDMI. On mode for 1080P/24 should only be used when auto mode is not compatible with the display.
Currently no Rear projectors or flat panels from Samsung are listed on the main list since to my knowledge they all process a 1080P/24 signal using a 3:2 pulldown process. When and if that changes the list will grow. There is a Samsung DLP front projector on the list that refreshes 1080P/24 at 48HZ.

[SaintNick912]

Thanks for the info, it was the part about 3:2 that I wasn't fully aware of. The handshake won't honor 24hz, and I've seen the full "supported modes" list of the Samsung's HDMI reply via my Denon 3808ci. This means that right now my Toshiba XA2 can't/won't transmit at 24hz, but the PS3 in "on" mode will.

It seems to look better even with the pulldown being performed, so I think I'll leave it that way unless someone strongly recommends against.

[Hartigan'sCannon]

HDTV1080P what should I be doing with my PS3 to get the best quality with blu-ray on my KDF-50E3000?

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Hartigan'sCannon

HDTV1080P what should I be doing with my PS3 to get the best quality with blu-ray on my KDF-50E3000?

The Sony KDF-50E3000 supports a 1080P/24 signal and to my knowledge it refreshes the image at 60HZ instead of using the multiplies of the original frame method. That is why the display is not included on the list.
You might not see any difference when you switch between 1080P/24 and 1080P/60 on your PS3 system. Both Sony products might do a good job of converting the frame rate to 60fps using a 3:2 pulldown process. You could try turning your PS3 1080P/24 feature off to see if 1080P/60 gives you a better picture. If it does then your PS3 does a better job of converting to 60HZ. Also try turning your 1080P/24 feature on to see if that gives you a better picture. If it does then the Sony 3LCD rear projector does a better job of converting the image to 60HZ. Most likely you will not see any difference at all between 1080P/24 and 1080P/60 since the display will convert to 60fps and the PS3 when 1080P/24 is off will convert to 60fps also.

[Hartigan'sCannon]

Should I have the cinemotion enabled on the hdmi input connected to my PS3?

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Hartigan'sCannon

Should I have the cinemotion enabled on the hdmi input connected to my PS3?

Cincemotion in Sony displays is a feature that performs a reverse 3:2 pulldown when it detects film based sources. Having this on should offer some improvement and it will work on any signal from 480I to 1080P. The auto cinemotion mode should automatically detect film based sources. This feature can be disabled per input since the auto process might not always work correctly and turn on with videogames or standard shows shot on HD videotape. When playing games select game mode for optimal results.

[JPSomner]

This was helpful for my understanding:

Movies (and most TV shows) are shot at 24 frames per second (either on film or on 24-frame-per-second HD cameras). Every TV/projector sold in the United States has a standard refresh rate of 60 hertz. This means that the screen refreshes 60 times per second. In order to display 24-frame-per-second content on a display that essentially shows 60 frames per second, you need to make up or create new frames. This is accomplished by a method called 3:2 pulldown (or, more accurately, 2:3 pulldown). It doubles the first frame of film, triples the second frame, doubles the third frame, and so on, creating a 2-3-2-3-2-3 sequence. (Check out the figure below.) So, the new frames don't have new information; they are just duplicates or triplicates of the original film frames. This process converts 24-frame-per-second film to be displayed on a 60-Hz (frame-per-second) display.

Since the 3:2 processing is imperfect, we sometimes see "judder", or skipping, in long panning shots and in rapid motion action sequences of movies. If the TV/projector has the capability of displaying the 1080p/24 signal at 1080/48Hz (2:2 pulldown) or 1080p/72Hz (3:3 pulldown) and so on for multiples of 24, the 3:2 processing is bypassed and thusly so is the judder.

1106gear.jpg

Where the dotted lines above cut through the frames in the 3:2 columns is essentially where the "judder" or skipping occurs. In the 3:3 column (72Hz, multiple of 24), all frames are seen in their entirety and no "judder" is observed. Of course, this last statement is simplified and generalized, but theoretically correct.

This is a great and useful thread. I am currently in contact with Runco to see what the display capabilities of my VX-2000d projector are. I havent found any display specs other than "1080p" in any literature, manuals or reviews. If someone here knows, please post. I will do the same when I hear back from the Runco guys to add (or not) to the list. Thanks.

[Hartigan'sCannon]

Now I wish it were 1080p/30 instead of 1080p/24.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by JPSomner

This was helpful for my understanding:

Movies (and most TV shows) are shot at 24 frames per second (either on film or on 24-frame-per-second HD cameras). Every TV/projector sold in the United States has a standard refresh rate of 60 hertz. This means that the screen refreshes 60 times per second. In order to display 24-frame-per-second content on a display that essentially shows 60 frames per second, you need to make up or create new frames. This is accomplished by a method called 3:2 pulldown (or, more accurately, 2:3 pulldown). It doubles the first frame of film, triples the second frame, doubles the third frame, and so on, creating a 2-3-2-3-2-3 sequence. (Check out the figure below.) So, the new frames don't have new information; they are just duplicates or triplicates of the original film frames. This process converts 24-frame-per-second film to be displayed on a 60-Hz (frame-per-second) display.

Since the 3:2 processing is imperfect, we sometimes see "judder", or skipping, in long panning shots and in rapid motion action sequences of movies. If the TV/projector has the capability of displaying the 1080p/24 signal at 1080/48Hz (2:2 pulldown) or 1080p/72Hz (3:3 pulldown) and so on for multiples of 24, the 3:2 processing is bypassed and thusly so is the judder.

Attachment 960

Where the dotted lines above cut through the frames in the 3:2 columns is essentially where the "judder" or skipping occurs. In the 3:3 column (72Hz, multiple of 24), all frames are seen in their entirety and no "judder" is observed. Of course, this last statement is simplified and generalized, but theoretically correct.

This is a great and useful thread. I am currently in contact with Runco to see what the display capabilities of my VX-2000d projector are. I havent found any display specs other than "1080p" in any literature, manuals or reviews. If someone here knows, please post. I will do the same when I hear back from the Runco guys to add (or not) to the list. Thanks.

JPSomner,

Thanks a lot for the excellent chart and detailed information of the conversion process. I like Runco they are the best or one of the best ultra high-end consumer display manufactories. I have emailed Runco in the past to try and find out if any of their front projectors or Plasma’s supports 1080P/24. I never heard back from them. Runco makes a very nice $250,000 SC-1 3 chip DLP front projector. This projector is not included on the list since it does not handle 1080P/24 signals as far as I am aware. It might be possible that some of Runco’s products could accept a 48HZ input with a external upscaler that would convert a 1080P/24 signal to 48HZ. I wish Runco would offer more detailed information about their products.
Here is a link to the SC-1 3 chip DLP for $250,000 which is one of the nicest consumer projectors on the market. Of course without a 1080P/24 support it will not be included on the list. This projector is is mainly purchased by multimillionaires who have a custom home theater room valued at around one million dollars or more.
http://www.runco.com/image/brochures/SC-1_2-06.pdf

[HDTV1080P]

The following NuVision 1080P LCD displays might be added to the list after further verification



NuVision NVU65HDN 1080P 65"

NuVision NVU52DCM 1080P 52"

NuVision NVU47DCM 1080P 47"

NuVision NVU42DCM 1080P 42"
NuVision NVU37L 1080P 37"
NuVision 47LCM3 1080P 47"
NuVision 42LCM3 1080P 42"
NuVision NVX37HDU2 1080P 37"

The above displays need further verification before being added to the list. Sent an email to NuVision and waiting for a reply.

http://nuvision.com/tv/

The Nuvision 52LEDLP rear projector has been verified by Perfect Vision magazine to refresh at 72HZ for 1080P/24 material

Quote

“ I was thrilled to learn that the 52LEDLP can accept 1080p/24 from Blu-ray and HD DVD players and display the signal at 72Hz, repeating each frame three times. This completely eliminates any jerkiness in movie playback that arises from converting 1080p/24 on the disc to 1080p/60 for most video displays.”

http://www.avguide.com/the-perfect-vision/78/nuvision.php

[JPSomner]

My pleasure on the chart. Runco has not been too forthcoming on the display resolution specs. I will keep hounding them and let you know of anything I find out. Thanks again for a great thread.

[rick240]

What about the Panasonic TC-32LX700, 32" LCD with 120Hz?

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by rick240

What about the Panasonic TC-32LX700, 32" LCD with 120Hz?

All US current models of Panasonic 1080P flat panels have 1080P/60 inputs only and no 1080P/24 inputs. The Panasonic TC-32LX700 is a 720P LCD screen and not a 1080P LCD. It will take a 1080P/60 input and downconvert the signal to 720P quality.
Last year I read that Panasonic was going to introduce Plasma screens with a 1080P/24 input for 2008. Most likely (hopefully) the Panasonics will refresh the image at multiplies of the original frame. Maybe 72HZ or 120HZ. Unless the specs change some of these Panasonic displays will be THX certified. I would be in shock if the THX certified dispalys did not bypass the 3:2 pulldown process. Pioneer for 2 years has been the only company making true 1080P/24 Plasma’s. It would be nice to see some competition. If Panasonic would list buzz words like 5:5 pulldown or 3:3 pulldown on their website for these new models then I will instantly add these models to the list. Otherwise I am going to wait for a professional review which will take a few months after the product is released. Info news link regarding the new Panasonic displays that might be added to the list in the future.
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&itemId =214667&modelNo=Content01062008124647947&surfModel =Content01062008124647947