Sometimes bitstreaming a Blu-ray movie to a A/V receiver sounds better than BD player

[HDTV1080P]

Sometimes bitstreaming a Blu-ray movie to a A/V receiver sounds better compared to a Blu-ray players PCM decoding

Most of the time when a movie soundtrack has between 2.1-7.1 channels of audio the A/V receiver and Blu-ray player both can handle the movie soundtracks just fine (2.0 tracks are a different story). Under most conditions both a modern A/V receiver and modern Blu-ray player will decode the lossless audio formats PCM, DTS-HD Master audio, and Dolby TrueHD into a PCM format that is bit for bit the same as the studio master. When it comes to DTS-HD Master audio and Dolby TrueHD audio tracks both a modern A/V receiver and modern Blu-ray player are capably of unzipping the lossless digital audio data and converting them to be bit for bit the same as the PCM studio master soundtracks.

One advantage of sending DTS-HD Master audio tracks and Dolby TrueHD audio tracks in bitstream format to the A/V receiver is that many modern A/V receivers will display words like “DTS HD-Master” or “Dolby TrueHD” on the A/V receiver display. The problem with the Blu-ray player converting all audio formats to PCM is that the A/V receiver will always say PCM on the display when 2.1-7.1 audio tracks are sent (This is a minor issue for most people).

When the Blu-ray format was designed the engineers decided that the “menu beep clicks” and the profile 1.1 “picture in picture Bonus view” content would not be offered as audio bitstream feature over HDMI. Instead, the only major advantage of having the Blu-ray player convert everything to PCM is that the “menu beep clicks” and profile 1.1 “picture in picture Bonus view” content can be heard. The “menu beep click” issue and profile 1.1 “picture in picture Bonus view” feature has been a frustrating feature to use for some consumers that are new to the Blu-ray format. It is too bad that Blu-ray players are not able to mix that second audio information into the main HDMI bitstream (Of course A/V receivers than would need to be designed to decode the “menu beep clicks” and the “picture in picture” bonus content). Therefore, if one wants to hear the “menu beep clicks” or profile 1.1 “picture in picture Bonus view” content they have to have the Blu-ray player convert everything to either PCM or use the analog audio outputs on select models.

Sometimes a modern Blu-ray player or even a modern A/V receiver might need a software update to correctly handle all the advanced audio formats since the firmware incorrectly unzips the lossless soundtracks. I will use the high quality OPPO BDP-93 Blu-ray player as an example. Before the March 6th 2012 OPPO firmware update was released, OPPO BDP-93 owners when playing back 6.1 DTS-HD Master audio soundtracks would only get all 6.1 channels of audio if they bitstreamed the 6.1 DTS-HD Master audio track to a modern A/V receiver. When the OPPO BDP-93 would unzip the 6.1 DTS-HD Master audio tracks from Star Wars or the Lord of the Rings Motion Picture Trilogy it use to under the old software drop the 6th channel and decode 6.1 DTS-HD Master audio tracks as 5.1 PCM audio instead of 6.1 PCM audio. OPPO Digital INC engineers fixed this problem with a firmware update. My point is this audio quality issue did not affect consumers that used the bitstream feature to a modern A/V receiver. A/V receivers are more likely to have less audio quality issues when converting lossless soundtracks to PCM compared to Blu-ray players.

Quote

“Resolved the audio channel loss issue where DTS-HD MA 6.1 audio is decoded as 5.1 for both the analog audio outputs and the HDMI LPCM output. Sample titles include "Star Wars: The Complete Saga (BD, 2011)" and "The Lord of the Rings: The Motion Picture Trilogy (BD, 2011)". The reason is the Center Surround (CS) channel is folded into Surround channels (SR/SL) instead of Surround Back channels (SBR/SBL). This firmware decodes this 6.1 audio as 7.1 by distributing the CS channel to the SBR/SBL channels, and send out through HDMI and analog audio outputs”

http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-b...e-65-0302.aspx

On some 2.0 channel Blu-ray movie soundtracks bitstream offers much better sound quality compared to a Blu-ray players PCM HDMI output

For a while I use to always have the Blu-ray players convert all lossless audio tracks to PCM so that I could listen to profile 1.1 “picture in picture Bonus view” content plus the “menu beep clicks”. Now I always have my Blu-ray player bitstream all main audio tracks to the Pioneer A/V receiver for improved audio quality with some 2.0 soundtracks. Of course, I lose the “menu beep click” feature but that was always a minor issue for me. When I do run into a genuine profile 1.1 “picture in picture Bonus View” feature than for that Blu-ray disc I briefly change the Blu-ray player settings to mix the picture and picture audio into the PCM format.

All Blu-ray players that I have tested will not detect and decode Dolby Pro Logic matrix soundtracks located on Blu-ray discs with 2.0 audio tracks

There have been many 2.0 lossless and lossy audio tracks on Blu-ray discs that are encoded with Dolby Pro Logic information. I have ran into many 2.0 stereo audio commentary tracks and some 2.0 stereo isolated musical scores that a modern Pioneer A/V receiver will decode the matrix encoded soundtrack to Dolby Pro Logic IIx. A Blu-ray player will not detect and decode Dolby Pro Logic and Dolby Pro Logic II soundtracks from 2.0 soundtracks and instead will play the audio commentary track or isolated musical score as a left and right front stereo soundtrack. However, when the Blu-ray player bitstreams a 2.0 lossless or lossy soundtrack modern A/V receivers will detect if the soundtrack is encoded with matrix Dolby Pro Logic information.

I have seen Pioneer A/V receivers automatically switch to Dolby Pro Logic IIx sometimes, and then take two-channel audio commentaries and send the mono human dialog voice information to the center channel, and also sometimes creating a mono 7.1 surround sound information. I like it when 2.0 audio commentaries and 2.0 isolated music scores are encoded with Dolby Pro Logic and Dolby Pro Logic II information since it gives some depth to the movie soundtrack. In addition, the Pioneer Elite SC-57 has Dolby Pro Logic IIz which can activate all 9.1 channels on some future encoded 2.0 Dolby matrix soundtracks. So far, the SC-57 has only engaged Dolby Pro Logic IIx when watching some 2.0 commentary tracks.

[Dweedlebug]

One advantage of sending DTS-HD Master audio tracks and Dolby TrueHD audio tracks in bitstream format to the A/V receiver is that many modern A/V receivers will display words like “DTS HD-Master” or “Dolby TrueHD” on the A/V receiver display.

Yes, that's quite an advantage...

[TripleHBK]

This read like an 8th grade essay, or at best a poor persuasive speech from High School speech class. As for the entire final 2 paragraphs... Dolby Pro Logic was designed with 2.0 channel sources in mind. The audio tracks aren't encoded with additional frequencies or layers that only pro logic, and nothing else can pick up on. Pro logic (like many other decoding formats) are nothing but algorithms designed to take a signal and spread it around to all of your speakers that weren't originally part of the sound mix when the audio presentation was designed. I've had no problem using pro-logic with any music/movie/tv show/commentary etc on any of my receivers for over a decade now, regardless of whether they were filmed in mono or 7.1 surround. The word matrix says it all... If this were using discrete channels, then something was encoded directly for each speaker, if it says matrix, then it's all an algorithm. Think of the way that some new tv's convert 2d content into 3d. They're essentially looking at the data, and through a complex algorithm deciding what goes where. The same can be said for Pro Logic. If it's not using discrete channels, then it's really just guessing in the end, and as far as that goes, then there's no difference between PCM and Bit streaming in that regard.

[HDTV1080P]

Yes this thread is about a couple of examples when bitstreaming sounds better since the sound is handled differently by the Blu-ray player when it does the audio decoding.


The one example is when an old Blu-ray player firmware dropped 6.1 DTS-HD Master audio and instead sent 5.1 DTS HD Master audio from Star Wars and the Lord of the Rings. The first example in theory is no longer an issue since most modern Blu-ray player firmware correctly handles 2.1-7.1 lossless audio tracks.

The second example is when the movie studios encode Dolby Pro logic or Dolby Pro logic II matrix information onto 2.0 channel bonus material like commentary tracks and musical scores. The Pioneer A/V receivers and other A/V receiver brands will not automatically detect the matrix surround sound information when a Blu-ray player converts lossless and lossy 2.0 audio tracks to 2.0 channel PCM information. Only if the Blu-ray player bitstreams the 2.0 stereo lossless or lossy bonus features that are encoded with Dolby Prologic or Dolby Prologic II information will the A/V receiver automatically switch to Dolby Pro logic IIx or IIz.


Since I always watch all the extra features on all the Blu-ray discs I own I have ran into many 2.0 commentary tracks, musical scores, and other bonus material that automatically engage Dolby Pro logic IIx when bitstreaming is used. Some Blu-ray discs with 2.0 channel information for bonus material are just plain stereo sound with no Dolby Pro Logic IIx needed. Depending on the Blu-ray disc I play the Pioneer SC-57 and other models will either automatically play the 2.0 channel bonus material as 2.0 stereo or up to 9.1 if matrix Dolby Surround information was encoded by the studio. Old Laserdiscs and DVD’s also had 2.0 soundtracks that became surround sound with Dolby Pro Logic decoders.


Quote

“When a Dolby Stereo/Dolby Surround soundtrack is produced, five elements of audio information (left, center, right, sub and surround) are matrix-encoded two channels with stereo playback compatibility. The stereo information is carried on stereo sources such as VHS TV, DVD's, 35mm Theatrical Print Optical Soundtrack, Television Broadcasts from which the surround information can be decoded by a processor to recreate the original Dolby Surround (left, center, right, sub and surround) mix. Without the decoder, the information still plays in standard stereo in great quality or in mono with good quality.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_surround

[Ace_of_Sevens]

He does have a point that PCM can't handle matrix flagging, but you can manually set your receiver to Pro-Logic mode. In fact, most people just leave it in Pro-Logic mode.

[Silver_Cat]

Sometimes its the conection, I heard more details for example with coaxial with a movie with DD 5.1 THAN a optical of the same brand.

[HDTV1080P]

I leave my Pioneer A/V receivers on stream direct all the time for all inputs since I do not like simulated surround sound. So when I play a 2.0 audio CD I get stereo out of the left and right speakers. When I play a 7.1 soundtrack I get true 7.1 surround. When I play a 5.1 soundtrack, 5.1 discrete is played on 7.1 channels (The two left back speakers share the same exact information and the two right back speakers share the exact same information).

Information on the “Shooter” Blu-ray

While using a Pioneer Elite VSX-33 on stream direct almost all the bonus features are in regular 2.0 Dolby Digital stereo with information coming out of the left and right front speakers only. The commentary track for the Shooter is encoded with matrix surround sound information. As soon as the 2.0 Dolby Digital lossy commentary track played for the Shooter the Pioneer receiver automatically detected Dolby Surround sound information. Director Antoine Fuqua voice came out of the center channel while the rear mono surround back speakers added some depth during certain scenes in the movie while the director was speaking. If I change the Blu-ray player from bitstream to decoding all audio formats to PCM the Blu-ray player removes the Dolby Pro logic data that allows the Pioneer to automatically switch to Dolby Pro logic IIx.

[HDTV1080P]

The Blu-ray player is merely removing the Dolby Pro Logic flag when 2.0 Dolby Digital TrueHD or 2.0 Dolby digital is converted to 2.0 PCM. Blu-ray players do not have the ability to detect and decode Dolby Pro logic matrix information from 2.0 soundtracks.

There are also many commentary tracks that are standard stereo that I prefer listening to in standard stereo. I am going to continue to bitstream since I want the A/V receiver to only engage Dolby Prologic when Pro Logic surround sound information exists on the Blu-ray, DVD, or Laserdisc.

Another issue I have noticed is that when I leave my A/V receiver at the exact same volume level, when the A/V receiver decodes the 5.1-7.1 DTS-HD Master audio information to PCM the audio is slightly louder compared to when the Blu-ray player unzips the DTS-HD Master audio and sends it as 5.1- 7.1 PCM. Either something in the DTS-HD Master audio bitstream is telling the A/V receiver to be louder or the Pioneer A/V receiver firmware was designed to play DTS-HD Master audio tracks at slightly louder level compared to native PCM tracks.

[Jables]

The Blu-ray player is merely removing the Dolby Pro Logic flag when 2.0 Dolby Digital TrueHD or 2.0 Dolby digital is converted to 2.0 PCM. Blu-ray players do not have the ability to detect and decode Dolby Pro logic matrix information from 2.0 soundtracks.

Do note that no information is lost in this process. The PLII flag is essentially worthless. Any stereo signal can be passed through a PLII(x) decoder; if there are matrix channels encoded, they will still be reproduced as if the encoded Dolby stream were sent. PLII encoding does not encode the extra channels separately (as Dolby Digital does) but merely stuffs them into the FR and FL in a semi-hidden manner. The PLII decoder will catch those hidden signals regardless of whether they are flagged as present or not.



Otherwise, the only real difference in Bitstreaming vs. in-player decoding is with high-resolution signals. Many players do not process 96 kHz audio, so if menu sounds are being mixed in, the entire signal must be downsampled to 48 kHz first. Thus, in allowing the signal to be decoded and head to the mixer in the player, you lose some quality. (Merely turning on Secondary Audio can do this too. My previous Panasonic BD30 would always access the DTS core or lossy Dolby track, decode, and then mix, if Secondary Audio was set to "on." The player could not decode HD audio.)

Nearly all receivers can process at 96 kHz (and many upsample to that or 192 kHz to do all their processing), so no quality will ever be lost when bitstreaming.

However, 96 kHz titles are rare, so this little quirk will not often be noticed.

[HDuser30]

Wow, a flashback to 2006. People are still discussing about bitstreaming over PCM decoding?

[Silver_Cat]

For "trained" ears sometimes even a good MP3(192 or more) sounds pretty damn good. Not all is AC3 and DTS, it depends from the movie itself.

[HDTV1080P]

DTS Neo:6 matrix information on some 2.0 DTS stereo soundtracks

While bitstreaming from the Blu-ray player one can take advantage of the DTS Neo matrix information located on 2.0 DTS stereo soundtracks. Most of the time when watching Blu-ray extra features with 2.0 DTS stereo soundtracks the Pioneer A/V receiver when set to stream direct will play in standard stereo like it is suppose too. I noticed that some 2.0 DTS stereo soundtracks contain DTS matrix information flags, when playing those 2.0 DTS stereo soundtracks the Pioneer A/V receiver will switch to the DTS Neo:6 mode. DTS Neo: 6 sounds a little better than Dolby Pro Logic IIx. The matrix mono surround sound and center channel sounds very good for a lossy matrix audio format.

Some BD-LIVE Warner streaming movie trailers are encoded with VC1 at 720P 24Hz quality (Warner video game trailers use VC1 at 720P 60Hz). The Blu-ray format supports native 720P at 24Hz for when 1080P 24Hz takes up too much internet bandwidth or physical disc space.

Warner BD-LIVE streaming trailers are in 2.0 DTS stereo and contain matrix DTS Neo information for those that own modern A/V receivers.

[8traxrule]

I've had a problem with all the 2-channel DTS-HD Master Audio Blu-Rays I've gotten so far. All of them have been from the bargain labels Mill Creek and Echo Bridge so they might just not be flagged properly, but my Pioneer refuses to matrix-decode these- it stays in straight 2-channel mode. My Sony player did not have full DTS decoding so outputting PCM on that would just produce the core DTS track, I just upgraded to an Oppo which thankfully does have full DTS decoding so this is no longer a problem. (The receiver also will not EX decode the surrounds in DTS-HD, but I assume those will be flagged to do it if they're really supposed to. I have seen a few Dolby EX tracks that weren't properly flagged.)

I've noticed if you have the Oppo's HDMI audio set to "Auto", it will output Blu-Ray tracks in PCM when there are extra sounds on the disc to be mixed in, but on ones that do not have any it will bitstream the audio instead. The Mill Creek discs don't seem to have any menu sounds, but those still get sent out as PCM so my receiver can pro-logic decode the 2-channel tracks.

[HDTV1080P]

Bitstreaming lossless audio tracks sounds better when those tracks contain Dolby Prologic IIx or IIz (or DTS NEO X) information

If one wants to hear the “menu beep clicks” or profile 1.1 “picture in picture Bonus view” content they have to have the Blu-ray player convert everything to either PCM or use the analog audio outputs on select models. Blu-ray players do not have a Dolby Prologic IIx decoder feature or DTS Neo X decoder feature when converting lossless and lossy soundtracks to PCM. So for the best sound quality it is better to bitstream lossless and lossy soundtracks from a Blu-ray player to a modern A/V receiver so that the Dolby Prologic flag or DTS Neo X flag is not lost.

In the future some discrete 7.1 Blu-ray lossless movie soundtracks might be encoded with Dolby Pro Logic IIz or DTS Neo X to offer an up-converted 9.1 or 11.1 surround sound experience.

The Perfect Storm Blu-ray contains a lossless audio track with 5.1 discrete channels and 1 matrix channel that allows consumers to hear the movie in 7.1 surround sound

The Perfect Storm Dolby TrueHD 5.1 lossless audio track is encoded with a matrix Dolby Pro Logic IIx channel that can be extracted from the discrete lossless Dolby TrueHD bitstream. For example when I tested both a Pioneer Elite SC-57 and Pioneer Elite VSX-33 A/V receiver in the STREAM DIRECT mode they both automatically detected the Dolby Prologic IIx flag and up-converted the 5.1 lossless Dolby TrueHD soundtrack to 7.1 surround sound. The normal 5.1 channels were discrete and rear back speaker 6 and rear back speaker 7 contained matrix surround audio information. Listening to the up-converted lossless audio track in 7.1 surround sounded excellent. The movie with wind and rain had a lot of depth and the subwoofer produced excellent bass during the hurricane scenes. Of course a discrete 7.1 soundtrack would sound better but the 5.1 discrete soundtrack with the added rear Dolby Prologic IIx matrix channel was a nice bonus to create an up-converted 7.1 surround sound information.