WSJ: Blu-ray Player Makers Embrace Online Movie Delivery

[Ray Von]

Originally Posted by mikemorel

CE manufacturers and retailers are using online movie delivery to sell blu-ray players. Apparently they just don't sell very well on their own.

Isn't that the other way around? Download STBs seem to be a very hard sell. I don't know if anyone has any newer figures, but the last sales I saw for Vudu put them at tens of thousands of units, and we all know what Apple says about AppleTV take-up.

Little wonder then that the only way to get downloads to the TV (the place most people would want them, but few seem to have them) appears to be to give them away

Originally Posted by mikemorel

Blu-ray players that include movie streaming have gone from 0% to 80% in one year. Even the PS3 will soon stream Netflix video.

That's not what it says. It says 80% of Blu-Ray players already have Internet connections, not that they include streaming.

Ray Von

[ack_bak]

Originally Posted by GizmoDVD

My mom has. She's happily been watching Netflix and video files on her $99 Insignia. I asked her if she wanted to borrow any of my BD movies and she said "not when I have 10,000 Netflix ones to look through". Since she piggybacks on my Netflix account there is no monthly fee for her. Keep in mind the Roku does not do everything a BD player can do (various different streaming services, divx/xvid/MKV etc.)

Your mom is not the average person who watches movies though. Look what the top rentals and sellers are almost every single week. New releases. If there was a huge market of people out there just like your mom, don't you think Netflix would offer a streaming only package?

As much as this site is for happy shiny Blu-ray people you really have no idea why people buy what they buy. I owned a PSP but not for PSP games. I also own a $99 Insignia and it will probably never see a Blu-ray hit its drive (instead for Netflix and video files via USB).

Yeah, but how many Blu-Ray players and movies on the format do you own? It is not like you are streaming only.

[GizmoDVD]

Originally Posted by Ray Von

Isn't that the other way around? Download STBs seem to be a very hard sell. I don't know if anyone has any newer figures, but the last sales I saw for Vudu put them at tens of thousands of units, and we all know what Apple says about AppleTV take-up.

Little wonder then that the only way to get downloads to the TV (the place most people would want them, but few seem to have them) appears to be to give them away

Ray Von

ATV has sold a told of hardware. Apple just has no idea what to do with the damn machine and spends little time promoting it. It really is a solid piece of a hardware. Download STBs were either too costly when they came out (VuDu was $249 or $299 but is now a more reasonable $99-$149) while RoKu is not sold in stores. I can't think of any other download STB available (Maybe that Western TV thingy...though I don't think it does downloads).

Funny thing is, the only way to get people to buy Blu-ray players is to literally give them away at that sub $200 range. Even at that point, unless its packed with additional 'complimentary' features (Download, Netflix, Pandora etc.) they are likely to be a tough sell in today's economy. Why get a player that can only do Blu-ray/DVD when you can get one that does that and various other things? The days of 'one' box is coming fast.

Every CE has not added some sort of streaming/download to their players (except Toshiba; idiots). Sony, LG, Samsung, Panasonic and even Insignia.

[GizmoDVD]

Originally Posted by ack_bak

Your mom is not the average person who watches movies though. Look what the top rentals and sellers are almost every single week. New releases. If there was a huge market of people out there just like your mom, don't you think Netflix would offer a streaming only package?

She's at the Theaters 2-3 times a week while I go 2-3 times a year. In general, she likely watches more movies per year than I do. She disliked sitting at home and watching movies (for reasons I won't get into) but now that I got her a new Plasma + Insignia player for her she's been coming home from work every night and hitting up Netflix. It's now at the point where she told me to buy 3-5 more players for the house and Holiday gifts. As for Streaming and its own 'rental' plan - give it time. Netflix will eventually. Though $9 for Unlimited streaming and 1 DVD at a time would be a great little fee for her. I wouldn't expect a 'streaming' only plan for under $10 a month anyway.

Yeah, but how many Blu-Ray players and movies on the format do you own? It is not like you are streaming only.

I own 250ish on Blu-ray and another 300 or so on DVD. I now own two BD players (I've likely had 20 though). I'm getting to the point of not buying any more BDs and either going 'streaming' only or rental.

[Ray Von]

Originally Posted by GizmoDVD

ATV has sold a told of hardware. Apple just has no idea what to do with the damn machine and spends little time promoting it. It really is a solid piece of a hardware. Download STBs were either too costly when they came out (VuDu was $249 or $299 but is now a more reasonable $99-$149) while RoKu is not sold in stores. I can't think of any other download STB available (Maybe that Western TV thingy...though I don't think it does downloads).

Funny thing is, the only way to get people to buy Blu-ray players is to literally give them away at that sub $200 range. Even at that point, unless its packed with additional 'complimentary' features (Download, Netflix, Pandora etc.) they are likely to be a tough sell in today's economy. Why get a player that can only do Blu-ray/DVD when you can get one that does that and various other things? The days of 'one' box is coming fast.

Every CE has not added some sort of streaming/download to their players (except Toshiba; idiots). Sony, LG, Samsung, Panasonic and even Insignia.

What's a "ton" of sales though? The last stuff I saw pointed to ATV sales having risen by multiples, but considering they were supposed to have sold pretty poorly to start with that really doesn't sound like a 'ton'. Put it another way, we're told there's, what? 4 million Blu-Ray STBs out there, and that's prior to streaming bolt-ons. Are there any figures that show anything approaching that for download boxes?

The standard MO for download STBs seems to be release>sell modestly>give away. Off the top of my head Apple TV seems to be the only one that hasn't had to go down that route. Possibly an indication of what value the consumer puts on streaming? Probably too early to tell I guess.

Ray Von

[GizmoDVD]

Originally Posted by Ray Von

What's a "ton" of sales though? The last stuff I saw pointed to ATV sales having risen by multiples, but considering they were supposed to have sold pretty poorly to start with that really doesn't sound like a 'ton'. Put it another way, we're told there's, what? 4 million Blu-Ray STBs out there, and that's prior to streaming bolt-ons. Are there any figures that show anything approaching that for download boxes?

The standard MO for download STBs seems to be release>sell modestly>give away. Off the top of my head Apple TV seems to be the only one that hasn't had to go down that route. Possibly an indication of what value the consumer puts on streaming? Probably too early to tell I guess.

Ray Von

I have no idea on how many units its moved since Apple is tight-lipped though an analyst said it expects the hardware to move 6 million units this year:
http://www.videobusiness.com/blog/17...520041452.html

With the recent price drop and new software I'm sure its moving...but I don't think it will reach those numbers. Apple really needs to get a monthly 'download all TV shows' thing going on.

[Kosty]

Originally Posted by ack_bak

Sorry Mike, people are not buying streaming Blu-Ray players just to stream video and not play Blu-Ray discs. If all they wanted to do was to stream video, they could simply buy a Roku box at half the cost.

Netflix has made it very clear that their model going forward is to couple streaming with an optical disc rental package. The majority of new releases will be on optical disc only and streaming will offer access to a lot of catalog titles, TV shows, documentaries, etc. It is a value add by Netflix and a smart move. The fact that CE's are offering streaming makes a heck of a lot of sense as most Blu-Ray players have a SOC design and an ethernet/wireless port. It is most likely trivial for them to allow streaming on their players, and I think most consumers would rather buy a player that offers more features (ie streaming) than not.

As for your comment as to one day these players will be streaming players first and Blu-Ray players second, I would say that could happen eventually, but probably not for another 10-15 years. Netflix has stated that they will be renting optical discs for at least another 20 years.

Exactly right. Streaming is being included as an option because its cost effective to do so as virtually all the modern SoC designs for Blu-ray hardware have that capability on the circuit board. In fact, those players that do not have that feature are actually deliberately not enable-ling that feature for marketing purposes so they can offer multiple products.

The charts I posted earlier in the thread are appropriate as they are directly refuting your assertion that the addition of that capability is a direct result of slowing Blu-ray sales or that they are affecting rapidly growing Blu-ray sales in any way.

Sure, from a competitive Blu-ray consumer electronic manufacturer viewpoint or retailer viewpoint, it makes sense to add additional features to the product s sold to consumers, but its a supplemental capability to a product that is primarily designed sold and bought by consumers to be a Blu-ray and DVD player first.

[h0mi]

Originally Posted by GizmoDVD

My mom has. She's happily been watching Netflix and video files on her $99 Insignia. I asked her if she wanted to borrow any of my BD movies and she said "not when I have 10,000 Netflix ones to look through". Since she piggybacks on my Netflix account there is no monthly fee for her. Keep in mind the Roku does not do everything a BD player can do (various different streaming services, divx/xvid/MKV etc.)

As much as this site is for happy shiny Blu-ray people you really have no idea why people buy what they buy. I owned a PSP but not for PSP games. I also own a $99 Insignia and it will probably never see a Blu-ray hit its drive (instead for Netflix and video files via USB).

Does she have DVDs? Adding a Roku box means she'd have to have the Roku and a DVD player connected at the same time. This player mitigates that, and while she may not be interested in blu-ray discs now, there's nothing stopping you or other relatives from bringing one over to watch a movie with her

[Kosty]

Originally Posted by mikemorel

Spamming every thread with these graphs is becoming quite comical.

Is there anyway to put them in your signature???

I use them when appropriate to put the sales trends in perspective and I especially enjoy using them when you spout off nonsense thats in conflict with the facts and reality of the situation.

Not anywhere near as hysterically funny as some of your desperate attempts to imply that Blu-ray is somehow doomed.

Its especially funny after a week where Blu-ray has just almost reached $40M in sales and 2 million units in a week from the release of Transformers 2 Revenge of the Fallen. Your timing could not be more hysterical as obviously most of the new players sold with that streaming capability or PS3s enabled with that feature just went ahead and bought a Blu-ray disc anyway...

[GizmoDVD]

Originally Posted by h0mi

Does she have DVDs? Adding a Roku box means she'd have to have the Roku and a DVD player connected at the same time. This player mitigates that, and while she may not be interested in blu-ray discs now, there's nothing stopping you or other relatives from bringing one over to watch a movie with her

Nor really. She owns a few TV seasons of shows I've purchased for her over the years (Dick Van Dyke) but is more of a 'watch once and never again' type person.

[Kosty]

Originally Posted by GizmoDVD

Nor really. She owns a few TV seasons of shows I've purchased for her over the years (Dick Van Dyke) but is more of a 'watch once and never again' type person.

Streaming or rental from Netflix is perfect for a "watch once" kind of consumer.

[Kosty]

Originally Posted by mikemorel

"The horse is out the gate and there's no going back. Consumers want Internet-enabled devices" - Samsung

Sure they do, why not if its a free capability added to the item they are purchasing?

CE manufacturers and retailers are using online movie delivery to sell blu-ray players.

Absolutely false, without any evidence to support it at all. Now it may be very well true that market competition is bringing that feature to the devices that are being shipped to retailers and that feature, like BD Live capability will become a common or standard feature of players sold, but there is no evidence that thats a primary reason people are buying Blu-ray players.

News flash. Most people are buying Blu-ray players to use them as .........Blu-ray players.

Apparently they just don't sell very well on their own.

Untrue. You just made that up despite evidence to the contrary. Lier Lier pants on fire.

Pretty soon they will be known as "set-top boxes that happen to include a blu-ray drive", instead of "blu-ray players that can download movies".

Ookie Dookie. Its probably still simpler to call them Blu-ray players as that is what it seems most are being used for and will be used for for a long long time.

[GizmoDVD]

Originally Posted by Kosty

Streaming or rental from Netflix is perfect for a "watch once" kind of consumer.

Which is exactly why she loves it. She's called me three times today to ask me how to add more Netflix moves to her Q (she can barely operate a computer so I've been going through titles over the phone with her). I did manage to teach her how to watch movies on the USB drive I left her.

[ack_bak]

Just for you Mike per the other thread:
Downloads and streaming (SD+HD) are projected to be a $250 million dollar industry this year and a $750 million dollar industry by 2014:

Online video streaming and digital downloads should nearly triple to a $753 million North American market in 5 years, still a 5 percent sliver of DVD sales in 2008.

That quote is from a Reuters article that you posted yourself a few weeks ago. What is Blu-Ray projected to be this year? A $1.5 billion dollar industry? Wow. At the rate downloads and streaming are growing they might hit $1.5 billion by 2020. Impressive.

Sorry, just thought you needed another reality check. Sometimes you seem to get caught up in your hate for Blu-Ray and wanted to make sure we were still on the same page.

[Kosty]

Blu-ray Player Makers Embrace Online Movie Delivery

By the way, even the headline is a "so what?" They are still making and selling a lot of hardware that has as its primary purpose the playing of physical media in the way of high definition Blu-ray Discs and standard definition DVDs.