Disney's Iger: Blu-ray Sales "Not as Much as We Would Have Liked"

[HD Goofnut]

It's ok Taffy if we all had crappy vision like you we'd probably all think that the HD broadcasts over SAT/CAB were great looking as well.

In reality virtually all HD channels that are not broadcasting a live event have a lot of compression and it doesn't matter whether you have Comcast, Cox, DirecTV, Dish, or whoever. You can lie all you want about how Dish looks great, but either you need new glasses/contacts or you sit 20' away from a 50" screen.

[h0mi]

Didn't the term "HD Lite" come about because of the quality of HD content coming from DBS systems in the first place?

[luclin999]

Didn't the term "HD Lite" come about because of the quality of HD content coming from DBS systems in the first place?

Yes.

HD Lite refers to the TV-program received by the viewer, which has been somehow compromised (reduced) in fidelity. In internet vernacular, HD-Lite generally refers to programming delivered by commercial (subscription-based) providers such as DirecTV, Dish Network, and the major cable-TV operators. This is likely due to the customer's (heightened) expectation of a base quality level of service, that a commercial operator should provide picture-quality equal to or better than public over-the-air (free) ATSC-broadcast programming.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_Lite

[luclin999]

This depends on the movie you are watching, though. If you compare broadcast quality to blu-ray with, say, an action movie with lots of motion. That bit rate is not gonna stand up. Blu-ray is gonna trounce Sat/Cable.

Then again, you watch some character driven movie that's a series of talking heads... it is a lot less evident from my experience. The only movie I have to compare is Falling Down in this regard. 80% of this movie is Michael Douglas' DEFENS standing still, fuming to a slow explosive boil, or someone else talking about the guy. I got the BR to compare, and it was not easily evident. It could be because it's a poor transfer... or it could just be the content.

Image below is 120"+ projection of 1080i FiOS off HD PVR, that seam in the middle is a fold in the massive fabric screen. It's a picture, not a screen cap.

Like I said before, you really can't tell as much about the compression on a channel from a still image. The other problem is that the DBS provider can change the specific compression ratio for the channels on a given transponder on the fly in order to adjust for content.

The transponders on a given satellite can usually handle two or three mpeg-4 HD channels at a time with reasonable amount of compression. However due to space limitations, some transponders may have up to six channels jammed onto them which of course requires greater amounts of compression and a resulting loss in picture quality. Usually only the less popular HD channels are "crammed" but that can change from day to day at the DBS provider's whim.

Example, when the Olympics were on last year, Dish juggled the channels/transponders around on a daily basis in order to try to present those events with minimal compression and greater image quality. While at the same time moving other channels around to other transponders in order to compensate. This meant that some channels were added to other transponders causing a greater number of channels to have to share space thus requiring greater compression.

This means that on any given day, a specific "HD" channel may look quite a bit better or worse depending upon what the DBS provider has done to their transponder setup.

Thus, today, HBO may look "decent" while tomorrow it may look like "mush".

[Taffy]

As I see it the issue isn't about (and never was) just "watching" HD in these formats... it's about the value of amassing a collection (that is, making and KEEPING these recordings) of these broadcast videos and is this a better/reasonable/viable option than buying the optical discs (as well as "will consumers do this instead?"). We get caught up over arguing about how it looks, but that's not solely what has been advocated, and the arguments have been that recording these moves on these channels is an alternative (and a threat) to buying blu-ray.

h0mi....
You summed up the bane of my existence in this forum a lot better than I ever could.
I think this economical method of collecting HD titles is a viable alternative to buying Blu-ray for millions of mainstream consumers that are satisfied with their Sat/cab/Telco HD content. To say external HDD prices are falling is an understatement. When I started archiving, 500GB HDDs were priced at $100 and now, for the same price, I can get 1TB HDDs!!! Dish's new HD DVR (ViP 922) has a 1TB internal HD and still has USB ports for external storage.
Just as consumers are flocking to cheaper $1 rentals, for about the same price per movie, they can record from a broadcast library of thousands of HD titles off their HD service provider.
The above, to me anyway, represents a huge stumbling block for BD in it's attempt to expand beyond the rather narrow demographic group it currently appeals too.

[Sbert]

h0mi....
You summed up the bane of my existence in this forum a lot better than I ever could.
I think this economical method of collecting HD titles is a viable alternative to buying Blu-ray for millions of mainstream consumers that are satisfied with their Sat/cab/Telco HD content. To say external HDD prices are falling is an understatement. When I started archiving, 500GB HDDs were priced at $100 and now, for the same price, I can get 1TB HDDs!!! Dish's new HD DVR (ViP 922) has a 1TB internal HD and still has USB ports for external storage.
Just as consumers are flocking to cheaper $1 rentals, for about the same price per movie, they can record from a broadcast library of thousands of HD titles off their HD service provider.
The above, to me anyway, represents a huge stumbling block for BD in it's attempt to expand beyond the rather narrow demographic group it currently appeals too.

This is why you are wrong.

Sat/Cab/Telco HD is a ADJUNCT <- READ THAT AGAIN -> ADJUNCT and PART of the tools you can use for the HD LIBRARY.

You treat it as an adjunct yourself. You own some BD's and say although you probably won't, buy some of your LOVED titles on BD (i.e. contact).

However, if you want to surmise and either or logic situation here, it only applies to a VERY small group of people, like yourself. At which time, it is a PERSONAL decision and can not be extrapolated to the general population.

Yet again, you take your personal decisions, lack of insight, and thusly PLACE it on the general population, thinking that this would be in fact a generalized truth. It's is really just personal magical thinking at best.

[Taffy]

I agree, and my argument would be that we've had the ability to record "free" content for almost as long it's been possible to purchase content, and it's had little discernable effect on how much content people purchase.

Ray...
If I may.... just imagine your ability to record those HD movies broadcast on Sky movies, BBC and than multiplying that 1 HD channel you get by about 60. You wouldn't salivate with all that additional HD programming.

From taping songs off the radio, to VCR'ing/DVR'ing/PVR'ing movies - I've never seen the effect of people recording "free" content being identified as a threat to sales in the same way that, say, pirating of purchased content is. It doesn't matter if it's HD, SD or FM - it's been around for decades yet CDs and DVDs have sold boatloads. If personal recording was such a threat, why hasn't it had an impact during the best part of a decade that PVRs have been available?

High Definition recorders are relatively new. Until a few years ago, it took just a small number of recorded HD programs to fill up your internal HD. You were than faced with a choice of "shucks...I wanna tape this new show but which program will I have to delete". Now, with any number of 1TB HDDS, you could virtually record and keep just about anything you watch from here on out...and in beautiful high definition.

Basically, I can buy that methods of distributing "perfect" content (like downloads/streaming, Blu Ray etc) are competing. Personal recording just hasn't been a major factor, and nothing appears to have changed to make it one now. Or to put it another way, if people think it's worth keeping, they also seem to think it's worth getting an unmolested copy.
Ray Von

I suppose it all boils down to consumers now having a choice and asking themselves......do I really need to buy programming that's already stored on my hard drive????

[HD Goofnut]

h0mi....
You summed up the bane of my existence in this forum a lot better than I ever could.
I think this economical method of collecting HD titles is a viable alternative to buying Blu-ray for millions of mainstream consumers that are satisfied with their Sat/cab/Telco HD content. To say external HDD prices are falling is an understatement. When I started archiving, 500GB HDDs were priced at $100 and now, for the same price, I can get 1TB HDDs!!! Dish's new HD DVR (ViP 922) has a 1TB internal HD and still has USB ports for external storage.
Just as consumers are flocking to cheaper $1 rentals, for about the same price per movie, they can record from a broadcast library of thousands of HD titles off their HD service provider.
The above, to me anyway, represents a huge stumbling block for BD in it's attempt to expand beyond the rather narrow demographic group it currently appeals too.

That's all fine and dandy as long as you realize that most consumers don't understand external hard drives or how they work. On top of that most consumers don't want to fool with all that extra equipment just to archive movies that have incorrect aspect ratios, station logos, are edited, heavily compressed, have lossy audio, and have commercials unless they shell out for the premium channels.

[h0mi]

I think this economical method of collecting HD titles is a viable alternative to buying Blu-ray for millions of mainstream consumers that are satisfied with their Sat/cab/Telco HD content.

My immediate and first answer is to simply say this. You don't seem to understand that what you can enjoy with Dish HD is not something that every sat/cab/teclo customer can do with their equipment. You can swap your HDDs out. I cannot with my tivo. My sister cannot with her Sci atlanta box. Some friends of mine with Uverse, another friend with Directtv, cannot do that with their DVRs either. I have a friend who has FIOS and I don't think her DVR supports this either.

Most of us can add 1 external hard drive to boost the paltry amount of space available in the DVR. But we can't swap drives out; we can simply increase the space from 20 HD hours to ... 80, 160, or whatever fits on a 500gb-1Tb drive. I think other posters have mentioned they have DVRs that support this kind of hot swapping. For the most part those are exceptions; the most common set top box in peoples homes are Sci Atlantas and they are pretty gimped and only support E-sata "My DVR" western digital drives that cost $150-$200. (I paid $150 for mine and it was a steal).

So having said all that, in order to partake in this HD fun, people have to switch to Dish network, and while their membership is growing, it's not reflecting a shift of consumers buying Dish network because of these PVRs instead of buying DVDs.

The above, to me anyway, represents a huge stumbling block for BD in it's attempt to expand beyond the rather narrow demographic group it currently appeals too.

As long as DVRs operate the way they work today, this will never happen. Even if every sat/cab/tel company treaed DVRs like Dish, it's still more limiting than what DVD/blu-ray offer, and I don't think it will hurt as much as you do. I just don't think there's that much interest in these older movies, and if these channels rebroadcast the movies all the time, why would someone feel a need to keep a copy of it?

[comixguru]

This is why you are wrong.

Sat/Cab/Telco HD is a ADJUNCT <- READ THAT AGAIN -> ADJUNCT and PART of the tools you can use for the HD LIBRARY.

You treat it as an adjunct yourself. You own some BD's and say although you probably won't, buy some of your LOVED titles on BD (i.e. contact).

I love optical media and I collect my movies that way. But you'd have to be mathematically impared to called Taffy's collection of HD PVR records an adjunct of his collection. It's the other way around.

I continue to contend that it's interesting that Taffy can do what he does. His choice is not indicative that people are massively abandoning optical media for HD PVR. It's important because it shows there's choices out there for people who used to collect DVDs that don't include Blu-ray. No matter how misguided those choices may be.

[motion]

That's all fine and dandy as long as you realize that most consumers don't understand external hard drives or how they work. On top of that most consumers don't want to fool with all that extra equipment just to archive movies that have incorrect aspect ratios, station logos, are edited, heavily compressed, have lossy audio, and have commercials unless they shell out for the premium channels.

What's to understand? You plug it in, it works.

And "most consumers" that can't wrap their heads around how to plug in an external USB hard drive most likely also don't know the difference between incorrect or correct aspect ratios, uncompressed or compressed video, lossy or lossless audio. And they probably were quite used to recording commercials and station logos back in the VHS days.

[Sbert]

I love optical media and I collect my movies that way. But you'd have to be mathematically impared to called Taffy's collection of HD PVR records an adjunct of his collection. It's the other way around.

I continue to contend that it's interesting that Taffy can do what he does. His choice is not indicative that people are massively abandoning optical media for HD PVR. It's important because it shows there's choices out there for people who used to collect DVDs that don't include Blu-ray. No matter how misguided those choices may be.

I agree with the numbers as I indicated in my post. However, they are not mutually exclusive even in his household, so why consider it so? That just doesn't make sense.

Whether or not BD is the adjunct here or the Sat/Cable/Telco is the adjunct, doesn't really matter. What does matter is the understanding that a HD collection can comprise of any of the above, but to cut one out for the sake of another is really limiting yourself.

That's a pretty simple concept.

[Ray Von]

Ray...
If I may.... just imagine your ability to record those HD movies broadcast on Sky movies, BBC and than multiplying that 1 HD channel you get by about 60. You wouldn't salivate with all that additional HD programming.
High Definition recorders are relatively new. Until a few years ago, it took just a small number of recorded HD programs to fill up your internal HD. You were than faced with a choice of "shucks...I wanna tape this new show but which program will I have to delete". Now, with any number of 1TB HDDS, you could virtually record and keep just about anything you watch from here on out...and in beautiful high definition.

Though I'd love to have that much choice of HD content, I still wouldn't pick recording it as my medium of choice (unless it was unmolested). I've had a DVR for about 6 or 7 years, and access to a lot more than 60 SD channels for about the same, yet still have a collection of about 450 DVDs, and my DVR is used for timeshifting and the odd TV program I might want to keep or lend out. There's nothing inherently more desirable about "taping" movies off of satellite because they're HD than there is with SD movies. In fact, you could probably argue that if you've invested in HD AV equipment for the improvement it brings, you'd be less likely to accept the compromises recording from such commercial stations imposes.

If it was all PPV/BBC quality, without ads, presenter voiceovers and the like popping up, then I could see the attraction, but when I posted that thing about the pop-up of the woman with the torch, I genuinely thought it was some long-abandonded tactic - the idea of sitting down to watch one of my fave movies knowing that was going to rear it's ugly head at a pivotal moment would do my nut in.

I suppose it all boils down to consumers now having a choice and asking themselves......do I really need to buy programming that's already stored on my hard drive????

Again, that's a choice people have had for decades, yet it's one the majority have not adopted. I'm all for choice, but for my money the choice you've picked is too inconvenient and too compromised. If it works for you though, then more power to you

Ray Von

[Taffy]

Sat/Cab/Telco HD is a ADJUNCT <- READ THAT AGAIN -> ADJUNCT and PART of the tools you can use for the HD LIBRARY.....

I agree....

[Taffy]

Originally Posted by Taffy
I think this economical method of collecting HD titles is a viable alternative to buying Blu-ray for millions of mainstream consumers that are satisfied with their Sat/cab/Telco HD content.

My immediate and first answer is to simply say this. You don't seem to understand that what you can enjoy with Dish HD is not something that every sat/cab/teclo customer can do with their equipment. You can swap your HDDs out. I cannot with my tivo. My sister cannot with her Sci atlanta box. Some friends of mine with Uverse, another friend with Directtv, cannot do that with their DVRs either. I have a friend who has FIOS and I don't think her DVR supports this either.

I understand what your saying but I fail to see how it relates to what I said in my post.

....Even if every sat/cab/tel company treaed DVRs like Dish, it's still more limiting than what DVD/blu-ray offer, and I don't think it will hurt as much as you do. I just don't think there's that much interest in these older movies, and if these channels rebroadcast the movies all the time, why would someone feel a need to keep a copy of it?

Interesting point. Anyway, for us older geezers, our experience with movies goes back several decades....so naturally, we have more of a affinity for catalog titles than younger film fans. I'm not feeling the love from BD when it comes to releasing catalog titles so...screw 'em. Anyway, as you see from my signature, Dish movie channels are feeding my appetite for the older popular titles and the HD broadcast versions blow most of the older DVD versions out of the water.