Revisiting Toshiba Super Upconversion : It is really a super resolution 960p native

[Grubert]

A relevant article just appeared on dvdfile:

Of Resolution, Bit Rates, And Scaling

Most of it discusses low-bitrate HD, but there is one section discussion upscaled DVD vs native HD:

[...]
Are scaled DVDs “good enough?” And, are scaled DVDs equivalent to high definition? The clear and irrefutable answer is that they are not. Let me try to demonstrate as simply as possible.

Scalers, using various mathematical algorithms that vary in quality and effectiveness from manufacturer to manufacturer, will attempt to predict what the various 1080p pixels would have been if the original images were captured as HD; synthesized HD pixels are based on the values of the larger 480p pixels that surround them. To make clear the difficulty of synthesizing 1080p pixels, let’s look at one single 480p pixel and the 1080p pixels it contains.



Horizontally, there are 2.67 1080p pixels for each 480p pixel and, vertically, there are 2.25 1080p pixels for each 480p pixel. Let’s round that off to 3 and 2. That’s pretty close; 2.67 x 2.25 = 6.0 and there are six times more 1080p pixels than there are 480p pixels in any 1.78:1 image.



Consider the edge of a black horizontal bar against a white background; let’s simplify further by assuming that the edge falls right on the boundary between two rows of 1080p pixels. This is how the 2 x 3 array of 1080p pixels (the area of one 480p pixel) would look, excluding the sharpness of the camera lens.



But since half the 480p pixel area is illuminated by white and the other half of its area by black, the 480p pixel simply reports a single 50% gray level (ignoring gamma). Now, the interesting thing is that no matter what the original object shape is, if the equivalent of three 1080p pixels are black and the other three are white, the 480p pixel reports the same 50% gray level. So all of the following shapes (which are resolvable in 1080p) will result on the same 480p single pixel gray color:



This is highly simplified, of course. Objects are imaged at various angles; when that happens, the color of the pixel is a weighted average of illumination based on exposed area, but I digress. Here’s the big problem with scaling. Even with hints and indicators from adjacent 480p pixels, how do you mathematically decide which of those twenty possible shapes is correct. (There are actually many, many more combinations, but I’m limiting the discussion to very special cases for simplicity’s sake.) The reality is that you can’t. Scaling simply gives you a smooth representation of 480p resolution within the image space of 1080p. And, in fact, the scaled image can actually be a little softer than the original 480p image because the math can act as a modest low pass filter.

All this technobable aside, the bottom line is that you can’t get something for nothing. DVD’s 480p images contain a limited amount of information and you can’t reasonably expect that the six times greater visual information contained within a true high definition image can be deduced. So if anyone ever asserts that scaled DVD is as good as true high definition, feel free to suggest that that’s just a load of cow pies.

[stockstar1138]

Originally Posted by Coren

So, with Deadmeat's further posts in this thread giving you the answers to these questions, has he given enough proof of his purpose here to just perma-ban him yet?

you got my vote for a perma-ban.

im comparing the first postvia ps3 on my 1080p tv, it is obvious what is the sup-upconversion, not supringly it lacks detail and im sure this shot was cherry picked, so this is the best it will get.

[zaphod]

After the Warner move, some people suggested that Blu-ray's was a 'Pyrrhic victory'. I'm beginning to understand what they meant. Most of the rabid redbots have fallen silent, but now blubottles have to put up with Deadmeat's crap!

[Cap'n Neutrality]

Originally Posted by hstewarth

That is not actually higher resolution - that is just blending of low resolution frames to simulate high resolution. It a false sense of reality.

I can see the marketing now:

"If you're the kind of guy that digs Pro-Logic II, you're going to love super-upconversion!"

[BBM128]

Deadmeat gets pwned AGAIN.

[Deadmeat]

Originally Posted by Grubert

A relevant article just appeared on dvdfile:

Of Resolution, Bit Rates, And Scaling

Most of it discusses low-bitrate HD, but there is one section discussion upscaled DVD vs native HD:

The Toshiba tech in question is real-time super-resolution, not upconversion.

It is unfortunate that Toshiba decided to call it super upconversion for marketing reasons.

[kulmbacher]

Originally Posted by dvdfile

...
you can’t get something for nothing.
...
So if anyone ever asserts that scaled DVD is as good as true high definition, feel free to suggest that that’s just a load of cow pies.

Summed up nicely.

Up conversion or "super resolution" or whatever you want to call it can't begin to compare to the real thing. No NEW information can be created so it will always be a pale imitation.

End of story. I can't believe this thread is 12 pages.

[vinnie97]

Originally Posted by kulmbacher

Summed up nicely.

Up conversion or "super resolution" or whatever you want to call it can't begin to compare to the real thing. No NEW information can be created so it will always be a pale immitation.

End of story. I can't believe this thread is 12 pages.

5 if you maximize your control panel posts per page settings. Deadmeat, the BD-J/profile situation with Blu-ray does suck but I certainly wouldn't prefer this pseudo upgrade (downgrade for those of us enjoying Blu-ray and HD DVD) over it.

[Deadmeat]

Originally Posted by kulmbacher

Summed up nicely.

Up conversion or "super resolution" or whatever you want to call it can't begin to compare to the real thing. No NEW information can be created so it will always be a pale imitation.

The "misplaced" information spanning several frames is gathered into single frame. This is the concept of super-upconverison.

[Grubert]

Originally Posted by Deadmeat

The Toshiba tech in question is real-time super-resolution, not upconversion.

It is unfortunate that Toshiba decided to call it super upconversion for marketing reasons.

Jesus H. Christ. Somebody gag me before I get banned.

[Deadmeat]

Originally Posted by vinnie97

5 if you maximize your control panel posts per page settings. Deadmeat, the BD-J/profile situation with Blu-ray does suck but I certainly wouldn't prefer this pseudo upgrade (downgrade for those of us enjoying Blu-ray and HD DVD) over it.

Well, I was speaking on the behalf of J6Ps, not videophiles who upgrade their players every year.

[snp]

Originally Posted by Grubert

Jesus H. Christ. Somebody gag me before I get banned.

lol. Deadmeat just popped up with this in another thread i was chatting in, as well. He's nothing, if not persistent

[Cap'n Neutrality]

Originally Posted by Deadmeat

Well, I was speaking on the behalf of J6Ps, not videophiles who upgrade their players every year.

It would actually benefit you to not try and speak on anyone's behalf but your own....

Adding your voice to the "collective J6P" seriously downgrades the bell-curve.

[kulmbacher]

Originally Posted by Deadmeat

The "misplaced" information spanning several frames is gathered into single frame. This is the concept of super-upconverison.

Still, no NEW information can be created. Errors will abound. This may be a great new technique for upconversion, but still it will never compare to the real thing.

The only way to know if it is any good is to compare it to the HD DVD (or Blu-ray) version of the same thing!

[ccphilly1984]

Originally Posted by snp

lol. Deadmeat just popped up with this in another thread i was chatting in, as well. He's nothing, if not persistent

HEY DEADMEAT IS FUN AS HELL! DEADMEAT FOR PRESIDENT!

he's an HD DVD supproter's version of bil hunt... lol