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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ack_bak View Post
    LOL, I thought Mal had closed it.. IMHO, it was pretty tame and there was some good discussion going on. Oh well.
    Nope, wasn't me. Ack I know we don't see eye to eye on many things here. But I love a good debate. And this section has been dead. If something that tame is going to get closed we might as all well just stick to highdefforum.com for our debates.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sbert View Post
    Yes, it's easy to drill down certain things and say it has specifically failed to achieve things.

    However, the general question still pertains: is blu-ray in _GENERAL_ a success?

    I have asked this question to everyone in the past. If your feet were held to the fire and you had to answer. I believe in that poll, 1 or 2 people said no, everyone else said yes.
    And I guess it's easier to get the answer you want by simplifying your question?
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wendell R Breland View Post
    Sorry man, you post sounds like some old 78 that got stuck in a grove and is repeating the same phrase over and over. Your post contains nothing that has not already been posted countless times. Suggestion, do a poll, post the same message and ask folks if they really care.

    In my book if one is to be taken seriously they must show where they can equal or exceed whatever it is they are criticizing. So perhaps it would help if folks could post something about their personal successes. A short summary about me below, Facebook: Wendell Breland.

    AVS Forum › HDTV › HDTV Technical › The Official AVS Antenna and Related Hardware Topic! Post # 2475
    I don't get that response to Bruce. You would have done better by telling him why my opinion is wrong and provided Bruce with "facts" to back it up. Instead you ignored a well thought out explanation from Bruce and instead called him a broken record? Sorry but that just comes off as a last resort cop out IMO.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malanthius View Post
    And I guess it's easier to get the answer you want by simplifying your question?
    So are you saying that you think it is generally a success?

    Or what?

    The question isn't more simple honestly, it makes you take in the big picture and for some that's extremely hard to do especially with a complex situation.

    It's rendering an overall opinion on the matter. That requires more than a fact drill down because it is truly much more subjective. And of course as such much more of an opinion and more difficult to fully grasp.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wendell R Breland View Post
    Touchy are we? Not that it matters but do a search to see how many times you have repeated yourself.
    Not generally, just with condescending people.

    Go do a search for anyone besides you who has accused me of repeating myself.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malanthius View Post
    I just wanted to say that you are exactly right about how I feel Bruce. I'm fine with Bluray winning the format war as well. It provides me with a great product. Not without it's flaws. But a great product nonetheless. But just look at what Bluray was supposed to do? It was supposed to replace DVD. It's never going to do that. And I don't want people to play games with that statement. When I say replace. I mean replace DVD and continue the revenue the studios were getting from DVD. After all, if that was not the intent of releasing a successor to DVD then what was? To give us all a cheap upgrade out of the kindness of their corporate hearts? LOL yeah right! The powers that be had a gold mine with DVD and they wanted that to continue. That's why they created Bluray. You can't argue that. If you try you are using a lame argument.

    Once all/most of the catalog titles were released on DVD what were they to do? They had to come up with a better product to get us all to buy those movies again. Thus HDDVD and Bluray were created. But just look at the failure catalog has been on HDM? Is anyone really going to call catalog sales on Bluray a success? I guess if you don't want to honestly look at the big picture you can say "oh hey that was all extra money anyway. The studios already made money on those titles". Ya right! You could have said the same thing about all those titles that were released on VHS and then sold BIG on DVD. So spare me the excuses. I've heard them all before. There was big hope for Bluray/HDDVD. And those hopes resulted with an apparent max of less than what 3 billion in sales? 3 billion sounds like a lot. But not when you consider VHS's 15 billion and DVDs 20 something billion they made? (forgive me for not remembering the exact numbers) Kinda puts things in perspective doesn't it? So yes. Bluray/HDDVD great products. Both sales/market failures.
    For me the clearest metric representing Blu-ray's failure to be a hit with consumers is the format's still small 28% market share after nearly 7 years on the market. Last year it was 24%, so it's rising really slow. Sure the top titles get a lot higher unit share, but nearly all of those are combo titles, and not really reflective of what the format does on its own.

    But yeah to dismiss it and calling sales discussion a waste of time by saying "it is what it is" is indeed a cop out. Are the studios saying "it is what it is?" LOL, I don't think so.

  7. #22
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    If 4x3 TVs, with ATSC tuners, were still available and cost ½ to ⅔ the price of 16x9 sets then HDTV household penetration would be a fraction of what it is today. Many of you just do not get it, Blu-ray only offers a better picture and sound and generally cost a fair amount more. Better picture and sound just does not appeal to the populous at large, if it did then everyone would have > 55" 1080 sets (not 720 sets), 7.1 sound, DVD-Audio & SACD for music playback. But they don’t, they are quite happy with their low end 45" 720 sets and MP3 audio.

    From TK Arnold

    • Pricing. The days of commanding a premium for Blu-ray Discs is over. Consumers need to be able to buy BDs for the same prices as DVDs, even new releases. The message two-tiered pricing sends is that DVDs are inferior and BDs are elite, so too often consumers end up buying neither. In the early days of the format it made sense, but no longer.

    • 3D. It’s still too cumbersome and confusing. I have a Panasonic 3D TV, and a 3D Blu-ray player. I tried buying glasses for the TV but the guys at Best Buy gave me the wrong pair; when I went to return them and told them the model of my TV they said they don’t carry those glasses any longer. To top it off, I slipped Pirates of the Caribbean into the BD player and the screen said the player doesn’t recognize it as being 3D. I give up.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
    Not generally, just with condescending people.
    The only folks that have accused me of being condescending is former HD DVD cheerleaders.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
    For me the clearest metric representing Blu-ray's failure to be a hit with consumers is the format's still small 28% market share after nearly 7 years on the market. Last year it was 24%, so it's rising really slow. Sure the top titles get a lot higher unit share, but nearly all of those are combo titles, and not really reflective of what the format does on its own.

    But yeah to dismiss it and calling sales discussion a waste of time by saying "it is what it is" is indeed a cop out. Are the studios saying "it is what it is?" LOL, I don't think so.
    I think you have to remember that 28% of the volume of OD is quite sizable. Keep in mind that not all households have HDTV and not all of those have HD content. If Ackbak's pie in the sky figure of 60% of those owning HDTV have HD content hooked up, we're looking at a smaller population that would be buying BD in the first place.

    The market data with the above in mind isn't that BD is a consumer failure. It's the HD aspect that the consumer hasn't bought into fully. Two different things. In fact, knowing that our target population is considerably smaller and it's growth much more slower than expected, BD is actually doing just fine.

    I wouldn't consider it any type of failure. If it truly was a failure for consumers, it wouldn't exist now (as some of us thought might have happened (I thought this was a possible scenario prior to heath ledger's batman)).

    Unlike HD DVD which is/was a failure, BD is still being made, developed - both on a hardware and software front. It will remain in the consumer marketplace basically until OD is phased out on it's own.

    It will continue to grow due to it's own primary growth and expansion of hardware penetration into the population AND cannibalize DVD sales as well.

    Obviously the issue is not with blu-ray but with true HD population - enabled vs disabled.

    Lastly, in regards to content delivery, I am a proponent of combo packs. I believe buying the highest quality film should allow you to have fair use of all quality below that - I prefer the combo pack because it represents what I think we should have the rights to watch if we buy the film at 720p, we should have rights to watch anything below that quality.
    Cheers to the ever positive Kosty, may you find peace and happiness in the heavens above.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wendell R Breland View Post
    The only folks that have accused me of being condescending is former HD DVD cheerleaders.
    Did you ever stop to think that the only people you are condescending to are former hddvd supporters?
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sbert View Post
    So are you saying that you think it is generally a success?

    Or what?

    The question isn't more simple honestly, it makes you take in the big picture and for some that's extremely hard to do especially with a complex situation.

    It's rendering an overall opinion on the matter. That requires more than a fact drill down because it is truly much more subjective. And of course as such much more of an opinion and more difficult to fully grasp.
    Thats just it. I can come up with a few ways to call Bluray a success. Ive even called it a success on occasion. But when I call it a failure I usually explain why im calling it a failure. I think it is a success if you are talking about the enjoyment and satisfaction it provides to consumers that buy it. I think when you ask your simple question thats what you are reffering to. Im looking at it from a financial and bussiness point of view. Thats why I used the financial examples I used. Do you think Bluray is a financial success? Maybe you are right. Maybe my example is a simple one as well. But most of our discussions here seem to revolve around how much money the product is making and how much of an impact it has on the marketplace. So I thought it would be more appropriate to discuss Blurays success or failure based on its financial side.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malanthius View Post
    Thats just it. I can come up with a few ways to call Bluray a success. Ive even called it a success on occasion. But when I call it a failure I usually explain why im calling it a failure. I think it is a success if you are talking about the enjoyment and satisfaction it provides to consumers that buy it. I think when you ask your simple question thats what you are reffering to. Im looking at it from a financial and bussiness point of view. Thats why I used the financial examples I used. Do you think Bluray is a financial success? Maybe you are right. Maybe my example is a simple one as well. But most of our discussions here seem to revolve around how much money the product is making and how much of an impact it has on the marketplace. So I thought it would be more appropriate to discuss Blurays success or failure based on its financial side.
    A profit center is always a success to any business - period. Of course there are varying levels of success. Barely, very, etc...

    And we know from early on that blu-ray as a whole has been profitable on the hardware side VERY early on. And now with authoring costs and production costs so much lower - there's no doubt they are making money.

    So yes, financially, it is a success. Now whether or not you want to say it has matched expectations and initial market research - of course not - that being said. Most including you AND me felt at some point blu-ray may have been abandoned. Just that in itself is a testament to it's success on many levels.

    Blu-ray very well may be the poster child for a format barely making it.
    Last edited by Sbert; 02-13-2013 at 12:52 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malanthius View Post
    Did you ever stop to think that the only people you are condescending to are former hddvd supporters?
    Did you ever stop to think that the only people that is condescending to Blu-ray is/was HD DVD supporters?

    If you folks here were bashing the poor sales of HD content that would be understandable from one point of view but your’re not, many have singled out BD for bashing. It just reeks of trying to continue a war that does not exist. Just doesn’t make any sense to folks that desires the best picture and sound that can be obtained.

    If 4K is released on some long lasting physical widget, that is unknown to us at this time, then I plan to procure one.

    You may find this hard to believe but we used to have the same kind of format bashing in the D-VHS D-Theater threads. And no, I do not believe D-VHS D-Theater was a failure. Did it have a very small, niche market compared to DVD (and VHS). It sure did. Most of us knew that it was a temp product, movie and hardware prices were very high compared to DVD. FWIW: Still have my HM–DH5U and 5 movies because they have not been release on BD.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malanthius View Post
    Wondering why my Poll thread was closed? I didn't close it and there was no warnings and it was pretty civil for smackdown standards.
    Very civil. With the poll title explaining that members will be stating their opinions as to what Blu Ray will do for this year as per growth in sellthrough, kinda hard to pinpoint that this thread is stating Blu ray as a failure. Most here thought there would still be growth
    The lame excuse that someone is tired of the "blu ray is a failure" "not its not" banter, then at least warn of derailing conversation and leave it at that.
    Let us know what the reason is for closing the thread, I hope it is unintentional as Bruce suggested.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wendell R Breland View Post
    Did you ever stop to think that the only people that is condescending to Blu-ray is/was HD DVD supporters?

    If you folks here were bashing the poor sales of HD content that would be understandable from one point of view but your’re not, many have singled out BD for bashing. It just reeks of trying to continue a war that does not exist. Just doesn’t make any sense to folks that desires the best picture and sound that can be obtained.

    If 4K is released on some long lasting physical widget, that is unknown to us at this time, then I plan to procure one.

    You may find this hard to believe but we used to have the same kind of format bashing in the D-VHS D-Theater threads. And no, I do not believe D-VHS D-Theater was a failure. Did it have a very small, niche market compared to DVD (and VHS). It sure did. Most of us knew that it was a temp product, movie and hardware prices were very high compared to DVD. FWIW: Still have my HM–DH5U and 5 movies because they have not been release on BD.
    Wendell, I think you forgot this is a format smack down section. HDDVD vs Bluray was THE debate here. So I think it's understandable why Bluray would be the main focus. Other failures are brought up like VOD and streaming. But those formats were never discussed during the format war. But they were never thought to be the successors to DVD now were they? I think you are trying too hard to protect your preferred format which is obviously Bluray. It also sounds like you are getting your feelings hurt by people mentioning Bluray as a failure in their opinions. That just reeks of a fanboy mentality. I supported HDDVD at first. But I quickly dumped it when Warner went Blu. And I never let the talk of HDDVD failing hurt my feelings. Plus after Toshiba lost, it was up to Bluray to dethrone DVD. And it can't do that. I guess you would rather nobody mention that uh?
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