China Blue High-Definition (CBHD) Players Launched

[The Limey]

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

You guys ever get to AVScience Forum?

If you have then you are probably famaliar with a member there whose name is Keith Jack - who works for Sigma Designs Inc. one of the largest SoC OEM's in the world:

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/

I just sent him this PM:



When he responds to it - I will post that response here on this thread. I trust keith over "some guy" over at AVS to give a definitive answer on this.

If as suggested the "some guy" is the Australian who wrote/obtained the region free SD firmware for the players then the question remains - what does he know that we don't? That firmware made my XE1 multi region for all 6 DVD regions...

Very informative response from Keith Jack there and thank you for going out to bring that information into the debate surrounding this question.
I will post that info back on the AVForum and see what the response is.

[vinnie97]

I see zombies...let China wallow around in their own proprietary tech, don't help them profit any further.

[Vmk2]

what I do not get here is, if these early players are not able to have the AVS codec, they won`t be able to play newer discs with the said codec, what this would mean to the customers who bought them, they have to buy a new player then?

[Lee Stewart]

Originally Posted by The Limey

If as suggested the "some guy" is the Australian who wrote/obtained the region free SD firmware for the players then the question remains - what does he know that we don't? That firmware made my XE1 multi region for all 6 DVD regions...

Very informative response from Keith Jack there and thank you for going out to bring that information into the debate surrounding this question.
I will post that info back on the AVForum and see what the response is.

Doing a region free hack on a DVD player is not that hard. We know they sell these online - just like they sell region free BD players.

But a different format - we are talking about a whole new ballgame there. That would be more akin to having a BD player play HD DVDs.

[The_Doctor]

Originally Posted by Vmk2

what I do not get here is, if these early players are not able to have the AVS codec, they won`t be able to play newer discs with the said codec, what this would mean to the customers who bought them, they have to buy a new player then?

It seems that way. Or maybe they know that there is a way to do it. But I wouldn't put it past China to make all the early players obsolete.

The other alternative is that all this AVS from china talk is a bunch of smoke.

[Lee Stewart]

Originally Posted by The_Doctor

It seems that way. Or maybe they know that there is a way to do it. But I wouldn't put it past China to make all the early players obsolete.

The other alternative is that all this AVS from china talk is a bunch of smoke.

Trying to get an answer from Keith on that, ie; what is the holdup on the Chinese using AVS for CBHD.

Stay tuned.

[The_Doctor]

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Doing a region free hack on a DVD player is not that hard. We know they sell these online - just like they sell region free BD players.

But a different format - we are talking about a whole new ballgame there. That would be more akin to having a BD player play HD DVDs.

Not near as bad as a making a hd player read blu, which would be physically impossible, where as this is actually in the realm of possibility.

IMO it would take Toshiba accidentally "leaking" a patch/ major over hall, or the Chinese doing it on purpose, which they probably wouldn't do since selling their player would be a better objective for them.

I think the region hack was actually required by Australian government (they used to require that DVD players work for other regions since they get all kinds there and lot of disc from England too). So it is a bit different, than a hack from scratch.

[The_Doctor]

Originally Posted by vinnie97

I see zombies...let China wallow around in their own proprietary tech, don't help them profit any further.

I get this. I really do, but how would buying CBHD be any different than buying anything else from China/ made in china? To me it seems just as bad to buy a PS3 made in china.

If we could move away from China produced products I'd support that even if it cost more. Many people forget that way back before the Dark time , Wal-mart used to support Made in the USA even if it cost more, that all changed when Sam Walton died.

[Lee Stewart]

Originally Posted by The_Doctor

Not near as bad as a making a hd player read blu, which would be physically impossible, where as this is actually in the realm of possibility.

IMO it would take Toshiba accidentally "leaking" a patch/ major over hall, or the Chinese doing it on purpose, which they probably wouldn't do since selling their player would be a better objective for them.

I think the region hack was actually required by Australian government (they used to require that DVD players work for other regions since they get all kinds there and lot of disc from England too). So it is a bit different, than a hack from scratch.

Do you understand what this means?

The issue is that the AACS spec used is unqiue to CBHD, which means no user-installed firmware upgrades to HD DVD players would be possible since where would they get the unique key for each player.

I don't think you do. You have yet to address it.

[The_Doctor]

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Trying to get an answer from Keith on that, ie; what is the holdup on the Chinese using AVS for CBHD.

Stay tuned.

Cool!

I'm actually surprised by some of his answers

The TCL CBHD player was initially a heavily modified Toshiba HD DVD player to get rid of Toshiba's old HD DVD player inventory, and the Broadcom chip used in that can't support AVS.

What a blatant cheat. And they were bragging about all the different companies making these and they knew damned well that TCL was recycling HD players.

[The_Doctor]

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Do you understand what this means?

I don't think you do. You have yet to address it.

I do. And I have.

it would take someone higher up the food chain with access to the AACS China key to make the any kind of hack. It's really no different than any other AACS problem, which is why a PC would be able to circumvent them.

To get around this in a player would take installing the proper AACS key on the player which would then generate the unique key needed. (Glossing over subset-difference, Subset trees, nodes and such .)

The core of these players is a HD DVD player, so far only the firmware and AACS keys and menu devices are different.

What I though would be more of a problem is the modulation used and the codec (AVS). (8 data bit/12 channel bit modulation HD DVD, CBHD 4 data bit/6 channel bit modulation)

[Lee Stewart]

Originally Posted by The_Doctor

Cool!

I'm actually surprised by some of his answers

So was I. Not what I expected at all.

What a blatant cheat. And they were bragging about all the different companies making these and they knew damned well that TCL was recycling HD players.

The biggest issue at hand is the optical disc replication industry in China (for DVD) which according to that link I posted a page back, is responsible for 30% of the worlds output. To change a DVD line to a CBHD line is neither expensive, permanent nor time consuming. THAT was the driving force behind CBHD. Along with avoidance of royalties payments.

[Lee Stewart]

Originally Posted by The_Doctor

I do. And I have.

it would take someone higher up the food chain with access to the AACS China key to make the any kind of hack. It's really no different than any other AACS problem, which is why a PC would be able to circumvent them.

To get around this in a player would take installing the proper AACS key on the player which would then generate the unique key needed. (Glossing over subset-difference, Subset trees, nodes and such .)

The core of these players is a HD DVD player, so far only the firmware and AACS keys and menu devices are different.

What I though would be more of a problem is the modulation used and the codec (AVS).

What's left? The fact that they use the same wavelength violet laser and that data is the same distance from the surface?

[The_Doctor]

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

What's left? The fact that they use the same wavelength violet laser and that data is the same distance from the surface?

Well the firmware probably isn't all that different, if at all.
The AACS key and Menu are more problematic, although the menu could be fixed with a proper patch.

The AVS codec would be insurmountable IMO, although it appears they aren't using it yet


**EDIT**

Lee I actually agree with you that making a HD player CBHD compatible would be damned near impossible. At least for a DIY hacker and I don't foresee Toshiba or China doing the leg work on this. If some hacker does pull this off it would be a work genius.

Since the HD and CBHD player are physically similar in theory anyway they could be made compatible, which is about my only point aside from asking if a PC would work.

My advice is if someone wants to dabble in CBHD is to buy that player, although if China's power system is different than ours they might want to get a adapter too or find one as close to a A3 as possible and swap the power supplies.

[vinnie97]

Originally Posted by The_Doctor

I get this. I really do, but how would buying CBHD be any different than buying anything else from China/ made in china? To me it seems just as bad to buy a PS3 made in china.

If we could move away from China produced products I'd support that even if it cost more. Many people forget that way back before the Dark time , Wal-mart used to support Made in the USA even if it cost more, that all changed when Sam Walton died.

You're not wrong...but it seems we've devolved so far from that due to the insatiable desire for cheap labor. Consumers becoming ever increasingly reliant on lower and lower prices also feeds this need. I guess ignoring CBHD could only be construed as a baby step but it's something (admittedly with hardly any weight ).