Professional HDCam recommendations? Looking to spend $10K or less.

[Sarang]

Here's the deal. I want to shoot a documentary. Based on the needs I thought an EX-1 by Sony sounded a little shy of what I wanted but ok till I read the color scale.
This is what I want: 1.1080p24p 2.High bitrate, preferably 40 Mbps or higher but will settle for 35. 3.4:2:2 minimum on the color scale. Preferable 4:4:4.
Any suggestions that would fit what I'm looking for?

[aygie]

The HVX.

http://www.panasonic.com/business/pr...site/index.asp

But how good are you with cameras? Do you know your lighting? Shutter speeds, exposure etc?

The reason i ask is that this beauty will need you to know in order to get perfect shots. There is a learning curve if your unfamiliar with this stuff.

[Sarang]

Originally Posted by aygie

The HVX.

http://www.panasonic.com/business/pr...site/index.asp

But how good are you with cameras? Do you know your lighting? Shutter speeds, exposure etc?

The reason i ask is that this beauty will need you to know in order to get perfect shots. There is a learning curve if your unfamiliar with this stuff.

Sounds promising, especially with the bitrate. What am I looking at in terms of the chroma or color bit?
Don't know this stuff so much. Going to take a course or two to get it down. Mainly wanted to get an idea and was hoping I could get something in the price range mentioned for the needs I know will be necessary for this.
For lighting I'm going to have some situations where it will be possible but there will be outdoor stuff as well. I would love to just shoot this all on film but it's not even close to financially feasible, especially considering the amount of footage that will be shot, looking close to 10 hours on this.

[Philnerd]

Originally Posted by Sarang

Here's the deal. I want to shoot a documentary. Based on the needs I thought an EX-1 by Sony sounded a little shy of what I wanted but ok till I read the color scale.
This is what I want: 1.1080p24p 2.High bitrate, preferably 40 Mbps or higher but will settle for 35. 3.4:2:2 minimum on the color scale. Preferable 4:4:4.
Any suggestions that would fit what I'm looking for?

Oh my... you've got some researching to do You should check out both www.dvinfo.net/conf and www.dvxuser.com and read the hundreds of posts there regarding camera purchasing.

Having said that...
10K will not get you anywhere near 4:4:4 color space. I think the cheapest 4:4:4 camera is the RED but that will set you back 18K for the camera and probably another 10K in lenses and accessories. Oh and you'll be on a waiting list. So basically forget 4:4:4.

Be very careful about the bitrates. The MPEG2 bitrates used by HDV and Sony's cameras like the EX cannot - repeat cannot- be compared directly to DVCPROHD bitrates on cameras like the HVX200. MPEG2 is interframe and DVCPROHD is intraframe. Sometimes 100Mb DVCPROHD looks better, sometimes 25-35Mb MPEG2 looks better. The bitrates on these two codecs is apples and oranges.

DVCPROHD and HDV/MPEG2 cams are both limited to 8bit color, so frankly banding and color issues are pretty much the same on both. Again, 10bit color will push you well past 10K.

The 4:2:2 color on the HVX is a bit overrated in my opinion, due to some technical issues I'm not going to explain here, other than to say that the HVX physically doesn't have enough pixels to capture 4:2:2 color at 1080P. Its still good, but its not *that* much better than good MPEG2 at 4:2:0. The HVX is also a bit on the soft side, though still with a top notch image.

You'll also need to consider your video editing environment. Can your software support DVCPROHD? For that matter, can it handle non-HDV MPEG from the Sony cams?

Also, does your 10K budget include Microphones, tripod, lighting, etc...?


Honestly, do not - NOT - get caught up in a spec war when deciding on your camera. The truth is this: HVX200, Canon XH-A1, Sony EX-1, etc... all can look pretty much the same when viewed on an HDTV. To most viewers they're practially all identical and even experts won't point out glaring deficiencies in any of them when compared. You need to look at your editing software/hardware, lens requirements, form factor, recording media, frame rate capabilities, etc... and THEN look at the cameras and make your decision.

[aygie]

Originally Posted by Philnerd

Oh my... you've got some researching to do You should check out both www.dvinfo.net/conf and www.dvxuser.com and read the hundreds of posts there regarding camera purchasing.

Having said that...
10K will not get you anywhere near 4:4:4 color space. I think the cheapest 4:4:4 camera is the RED but that will set you back 18K for the camera and probably another 10K in lenses and accessories. Oh and you'll be on a waiting list. So basically forget 4:4:4.

Be very careful about the bitrates. The MPEG2 bitrates used by HDV and Sony's cameras like the EX cannot - repeat cannot- be compared directly to DVCPROHD bitrates on cameras like the HVX200. MPEG2 is interframe and DVCPROHD is intraframe. Sometimes 100Mb DVCPROHD looks better, sometimes 25-35Mb MPEG2 looks better. The bitrates on these two codecs is apples and oranges.

DVCPROHD and HDV/MPEG2 cams are both limited to 8bit color, so frankly banding and color issues are pretty much the same on both. Again, 10bit color will push you well past 10K.

The 4:2:2 color on the HVX is a bit overrated in my opinion, due to some technical issues I'm not going to explain here, other than to say that the HVX physically doesn't have enough pixels to capture 4:2:2 color at 1080P. Its still good, but its not *that* much better than good MPEG2 at 4:2:0. The HVX is also a bit on the soft side, though still with a top notch image.

You'll also need to consider your video editing environment. Can your software support DVCPROHD? For that matter, can it handle non-HDV MPEG from the Sony cams?

Also, does your 10K budget include Microphones, tripod, lighting, etc...?


Honestly, do not - NOT - get caught up in a spec war when deciding on your camera. The truth is this: HVX200, Canon XH-A1, Sony EX-1, etc... all can look pretty much the same when viewed on an HDTV. To most viewers they're practially all identical and even experts won't point out glaring deficiencies in any of them when compared. You need to look at your editing software/hardware, lens requirements, form factor, recording media, frame rate capabilities, etc... and THEN look at the cameras and make your decision.

Very good advice. Apart from the HVX being soft..... only kidding, that was my point with lighting experience etc, you can get wonderful images with all the above mentioned cameras but you can also get s**ty images too without knowing your stuff.

Philnerd whats your setup?

[Sarang]

Phil here's what I'm looking at documentarywise.

I will be shooting LOTS of color hence my concern of getting at least 4:2:2 as I want the picture suitably vivid with lots of pop. I want to do what I'm filming justice. As for high bitrate there will be periods of constant motion and I don't want to end up getting artifacts all over the place. 1080p24 is just my preference as I want this to work as well on big and small HDTV's.

[Philnerd]

Originally Posted by aygie

Very good advice. Apart from the HVX being soft..... only kidding, that was my point with lighting experience etc, you can get wonderful images with all the above mentioned cameras but you can also get s**ty images too without knowing your stuff.

Philnerd whats your setup?

Absolutely, every cam in this price range can produce stunning images or dumpy images. There are boat loads of independent films shot on pretty decent 35mm that look like a soap opera because they didn't hire a real DP or cinematographer (or didn't rent any lights for them to use )

As for the HVX, even though its a bit on the soft side, its probably still the overall best cam out there. The codec is robust, it edits fast on machines that *have* the codec , solid state recording is superior, the variable framerates, etc.. fantastic cam.

My setup is a Canon XHA1, 503HDV Bogen, Rhode shotgun, AKG blue line with one cap (CK91 I believe), a couple Lowel lights and a couple of Pelican cases. I really wanted the HVX but simply wouldn't have been able to scrape up the cost difference - and that's without factoring in P2 cards

Originally Posted by Sarang

Phil here's what I'm looking at documentarywise.

I will be shooting LOTS of color hence my concern of getting at least 4:2:2 as I want the picture suitably vivid with lots of pop. I want to do what I'm filming justice. As for high bitrate there will be periods of constant motion and I don't want to end up getting artifacts all over the place. 1080p24 is just my preference as I want this to work as well on big and small HDTV's.

Well if you can set up editing software that works with DVCPROHD and are ready to move to solid state recording then I have no hesitation recommending the HVX to you. Its an incredible cam with a LOT of versatility. A fella took one to Iraq not too long ago for his documentary and actually had it record an explosive or grenade going off - including the shockwave hitting the camera - without any damage. Its also been used in sub freezing temperatures with no problems. P2 cards have also finally hit sizes that allow fairly long shooting.

Just do your research and make sure you can handle the solid state workflow. You won't be able to budget a bag full of P2 cards so being able to offload the P2 footage throughout your shooting day is generally a must.

Check out www.dvxuser.com, which is dedicated to Panasonic's DVX and HVX cams, and particularly look for articles and posts by Barry Green. He works directly with Panasonic sometimes and wrote the official DVX and HVX guides (I believe Pansonic still offers Barry's guide for free to people that buy the HVX).

Good luck!