No more plasmas?

[chris gerhard]

I think there is a better than even chance that plasma displays will be no more by 2010. Pioneer and Vizio dropping out surely means neither of those companies were competitive in the market with their plasma products. The new Panasonic plasma displays might be good enough to keep hope alive but it appears unlikely to me. I don't doubt that plasma looks better than LCD but I just purchased my first 1080p display, a Vizio SV420XVT LCD. I am happy with the picture quality and I do know that blacks are better with a plasma, LCD is just a proven technology that works well. I do agree that LCD needs to get better and do it at a lower price and I think that will happen with greater demand that means lower LCD panel prices once the 15% or so of the market that has been buying plasma moves to LCD. Greater demand brings greater efficiencies. There are many competitors for the LCD market right now and despite the economy and LCD issues, the market is huge and should get bigger.

Chris

[vinnie97]

Yes, on power consumption LCD presently wins (yet my Kuro did achieve EnergyStar status)...but with the current generation, there are really no other pros still held by LCD. It's a very lopsided cons versus pros ratio.

[Badger3920]

I've favored lcd over plasma for a couple years now, with the advances that have come in the high end lcd's (leading me to purchase one a year ago). The blacks in the top lcd models mirror that of some plasmas (not kuro level, but nothing to turn your nose up at), and they're only getting better. Of course, as the top of the line LCD's get better, the advances make their way down to the lower level LCD's and budget brands.

With motion blur being greatly improved upon in the latest lcd models, I'd venture to say the opposite of vinnie for my personal viewing, I'd stack most cons against plasma and feel that it's rightly falling to LCD. I'd guess that in a few years, lcd blacks won't differ from kuros, and motion blur wont exist. Especially exciting and promising with the led models coming in etc.

For a while, I thought DLP was going to fall and it would just be lcd and plasma, but now it looks like it's going to be LCD and DLP, which makes a bit more sense to me

[vinnie97]

I don't know, there's perception and then there's reality and for what matters most in HD viewing (PQ encompassing color accuracy, contrast ratio and motion resolution), Pioneer's foray into Plasma is unmatched, with Panasonic getting the closest so far. What are the pros of LCD beyond power consumption and the outdated fear of burn-in?

With the economic downswing, I don't see LCD making leaps and bounds in improvement in the next several years because this requires investment in R&D. LED backlit displays cost more than Plasma currently and they suffer from blooming since not every pixel is independently controlled.

Seeing what could've been here makes you realize how close Plasma was to leaping even further ahead in the area of PQ.

[Badger3920]

When it comes to video, so far is PQ, perception IS reality. You did mention two large cons, although you did downplay them so I couldn't really attempt to use them as points (nice tactic, although easy to refute). However, it doesn't need to be a long and drawn out debate - because we'll go round and round all day just backing our own perception (opinion).

LCD runs much cooler, as a function of consuming less power which is important, there's the lack of fear of burn in, or hours of usage -- the degradation of LCD over the years is far less than that of plasma which is said to "burn out" after several years (and they do, just go to any sports bar that leaves their plasmas on 24/7). At any sports bar, which puts tvs under heavy usage, you can immediately tell which tv is an lcd and which is a plasma.

High end tv's cost a lot, regardless of the economy, and with lcd being on a much larger scale, there economy of scale is larger - essentially making it reasonable to assume that there is more R&D going on. It's only going to get better, and certainly not WORSE. In fact, brands like vizio have really been a great boon as they force the upper echelon of CE's to really keep honest and pushing the line.

Like I said, we can go back and forth all day, but I like the vibrant POP of (many) lcd's, I don't have to worry about leaving the set on as there is minimal degredation, it doesn't heat my room, it won't burn in, and my personal LCD carries a lot of the cons that plasmas did (although it does have some slight TBE).

All around, with all things considered, I think it's definitely the correct direction for the market to move. To me, it's like it was with blu-ray and hd dvd. Both are GREAT, and I'd greatly enjoy either -- one just has an edge that only looks to expand, so I support that one

[vinnie97]

Nice attempt to brush optimum PQ under the rug and call it perception. Simply put, there is an accurate color and grayscale and there is an inaccurate one. And "pop" (which is just a symptom of brightness and sharpness turned up to torch mode levels) isn't as important as how dynamic the blacks versus whites are.

And nice tactic on my part to downplay the Plasma "cons?" I've owned both techs so I think I've earned some room to speak here. I'm talking about plasmas in 2008/9 where the oft-referenced burn-in problem is virtually nonexistent. I don't know about Panasonic but Pioneer has an orbiter feature that subtly moves the image to nullify any threat of burn-in. As far as longevity, I've heard of folks keeping their Plasmas for 5 years or more...of course, they might not be heavy gamers. The recent models are rated for 100,000 hours, I believe. And heat is simply a byproduct of more power being used, so it looks like you did manage to find a way to "refute" my writing off of that problem. I'm sure the heat factor in those sports bars plays just as heavily a role in their degradation.

Anyway, if the top tier displays are dropping out of the market, that *does* remove some incentive for the remaining players to push the limits. I never claimed current quality would falter but the economy and the dropout of the #1 display maker might mean stagnation for a few years.

I guess we both need to face the fact that we'll never agree on anything high def-related (and possibly music or politics related), heh.

BTW, I wasn't a Plasma believer either until I started paying attention to the accolades that Pioneer was receiving and started to become irked by LCD's PQ limitations (off-angle viewing, another big deal). I could also put up with either of the technologies but I'm thankful there still remains an alternative for now.

And one last thing, Blu-ray and HD DVD were indeed identical experiences, except for BD's technical superiority thanks to more space and bandwidth. I don't think this analogy necessarily applies to Plasma vs LCD, which are more fundamentally different.

[bone crusher]

I've favored lcd over plasma for a couple years now, with the advances that have come in the high end lcd's (leading me to purchase one a year ago). The blacks in the top lcd models mirror that of some plasmas (not kuro level, but nothing to turn your nose up at), and they're only getting better. Of course, as the top of the line LCD's get better, the advances make their way down to the lower level LCD's and budget brands.

With motion blur being greatly improved upon in the latest lcd models, I'd venture to say the opposite of vinnie for my personal viewing, I'd stack most cons against plasma and feel that it's rightly falling to LCD. I'd guess that in a few years, lcd blacks won't differ from kuros, and motion blur wont exist. Especially exciting and promising with the led models coming in etc.

For a while, I thought DLP was going to fall and it would just be lcd and plasma, but now it looks like it's going to be LCD and DLP, which makes a bit more sense to me

I totally agree with everything you said.

[vinnie97]

Just more visual proof that Plasma tech was nowhere near its limits: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btXil...eature=related - 9mm thick.

[LtLalue]

Just more visual proof that Plasma tech was nowhere near its limits: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btXil...eature=related - 9mm thick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcAm3KihFho
I see your ace and I raise you.

seriously though, don't matter to me, whichever tv technology stays or goes, it's only going to get better. I personally liked plasma's...but ah well.

hopefully FED/SED can come into the fold...those were supposed to have the contrast, the deep blacks, refresh rate, of CRT tv's...but in a flat panel, flat screen...

anyone know if its ever gonna happen, i can't find anything new on FED/SED.

[gene9p]

When it comes to video, so far is PQ, perception IS reality. You did mention two large cons, although you did downplay them so I couldn't really attempt to use them as points (nice tactic, although easy to refute). However, it doesn't need to be a long and drawn out debate - because we'll go round and round all day just backing our own perception (opinion).

LCD runs much cooler, as a function of consuming less power which is important, there's the lack of fear of burn in, or hours of usage -- the degradation of LCD over the years is far less than that of plasma which is said to "burn out" after several years (and they do, just go to any sports bar that leaves their plasmas on 24/7). At any sports bar, which puts tvs under heavy usage, you can immediately tell which tv is an lcd and which is a plasma.

High end tv's cost a lot, regardless of the economy, and with lcd being on a much larger scale, there economy of scale is larger - essentially making it reasonable to assume that there is more R&D going on. It's only going to get better, and certainly not WORSE. In fact, brands like vizio have really been a great boon as they force the upper echelon of CE's to really keep honest and pushing the line.

Like I said, we can go back and forth all day, but I like the vibrant POP of (many) lcd's, I don't have to worry about leaving the set on as there is minimal degredation, it doesn't heat my room, it won't burn in, and my personal LCD carries a lot of the cons that plasmas did (although it does have some slight TBE).

All around, with all things considered, I think it's definitely the correct direction for the market to move. To me, it's like it was with blu-ray and hd dvd. Both are GREAT, and I'd greatly enjoy either -- one just has an edge that only looks to expand, so I support that one

wow..you must work at BB or were brainwashed by one of the kiddies working there.....time to reducate yourself to see how great plasma is and how lcd keeps flopping..Vizio a great boon..I wouldn't buy a Vizio with a gun to my head

[Guns4Hire]

wow..you must work at BB or were brainwashed by one of the kiddies working there.....time to reducate yourself to see how great plasma is and how lcd keeps flopping..Vizio a great boon..I wouldn't buy a Vizio with a gun to my head

Actually you are putting words in his mouth. He never said he would buy a Vizio. He said:

In fact, brands like vizio have really been a great boon as they force the upper echelon of CE's to really keep honest and pushing the line.

Which has nothing to do with buying Vizio.

[Clessy]

What does this mean for the future of Super thin plasmas?

Sigh I was once a LCD fan untill I bought a plasma. Man if only i'd of known just how much better they are.

I was really looking forward to pioneers 9mm 50inch plasma.

I guess I have to pray that panasonic gets it sizes down and can release a competing size.

Maybe there super thin plasmas with even better blacks and greatly reduced power usage can help get plasma back in gear.

I think people fear burn in most. I think manufacture should just pre burn there screens.

[Dennis M.]

Like I said, we can go back and forth all day, but I like the vibrant POP of (many) lcd's, I don't have to worry about leaving the set on as there is minimal degredation, it doesn't heat my room, it won't burn in, and my personal LCD carries a lot of the cons that plasmas did (although it does have some slight TBE).

Apart from what Vinnie said regarding color accuracy vs. "pop" I just have to say that I find watching an LCD with that kind of set-up very tiring after a while.
Overall I think that LCDs have come a long way in the past 2 years (prior to 2007 LCD-TVs were not a mature product IMHO and even the best LCD sets had below average PQ) but Plasmas still have a clear edge. I'm sad to see them go, especially the ones made by Pioneer.

All around, with all things considered, I think it's definitely the correct direction for the market to move. To me, it's like it was with blu-ray and hd dvd. Both are GREAT, and I'd greatly enjoy either -- one just has an edge that only looks to expand, so I support that one

But they are not comparable in any way. Display technologies are completely interchangeable with one another as you can feed them with any kind of content you wish.
The Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD clash was a "war" because the home-video market can only function properly with a single format. Besides, BD & HD-DVD were so similar with one another (mostly same specs and the exact same co-dec support) making it simply a clash of corporations and not a genuine divide between competing technologies.

[Badger3920]

Just more visual proof that Plasma tech was nowhere near its limits: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btXil...eature=related - 9mm thick.

Well that's pretty awesome, but it was a prototype, and at the high end of the spectrum. Also, with any luck, it would be completely obsolete in a few years due to OLED (I think it's wishful thinking to expect that to be cheap anytime soon, but that's likely the way the market is going). All high end prototypes are innovating in exciting ways. LED's are a great way to go - and, as far as I know, they are more accurate in color reproduction and blacks.

wow..you must work at BB or were brainwashed by one of the kiddies working there.....time to reducate yourself to see how great plasma is and how lcd keeps flopping..Vizio a great boon..I wouldn't buy a Vizio with a gun to my head

Heh, yeah - my slight preference (and that's all it is) for the LCD look over plasma means i'm a bestbuy employee, or get my consumer information from them. Great logic as always gene. It's also silly to assume I dont have any reasonable experience with a kuro...

But they are not comparable in any way. Display technologies are completely interchangeable with one another as you can feed them with any kind of content you wish.
The Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD clash was a "war" because the home-video market can only function properly with a single format. Besides, BD & HD-DVD were so similar with one another (mostly same specs and the exact same co-dec support) making it simply a clash of corporations and not a genuine divide between competing technologies.

I agree with you. The only reason I brought it up is because of the market similarities. It's filling up with people that are going to have to make a choice between SIMILAR, excellent products. I like competition as much as the next guy, but for j6p coming into the market and having to make a list of differences between DLP, LCD, and Plasma -- it's unnecessary in my opinion. This site has a LOT of kuro fans, and I'm one of them, but I do prefer my LCD to most any tv I've spent considerable time watching -- and I'm not surprised to see people angry about this.

I'm sad to see kuro/plasma go too, but it DOES make logical sense to me

[vinnie97]

There were some poor management decisions that caused them to arrive at this current impasse, no doubt, but I think if the world economy wasn't in shambles like it is now, we might have actually had a chance of seeing that 2008 prototype become a working product as early as next year. Only 41 pounds, wow.

LtLaLue, OLED has been just around the corner for years now. I have little doubt Pioneer was much closer in envisioning a home-theater sized screen with infinite blacks for $5000 MSRP or under than Sony was in churning out a similar OLED display (which purportedly still has a very limited lifespan).

Oh yea, one last comment on comparing display technologies to HD DVD versus Blu-ray...the end-result audiovisual differences between the 2 aren't as stark as Plasma vs LCD, IMO. Yes, that will obviously eventually change with further innovation and refinements but it is the status quo. Getting over Plasma's demise will be much more difficult than that of HD DVD.