Bioshock/Bioshock 2: Andrew Ryan quotes

[ApBtFusion]

something like this,

"it was not impossible to build rapture under the sea, it was impossible to build it anywhere else"

[ubifluxusibimotus]

Bioshock is actually a sharply critical depiction of Rand's philosophy and principles in practice. Eventhough Andrew Ryan seems to be mirroring Ayn Rand's ideas and opinions, which makes the game look like its affirmative of Rand's ideas, the character of Atlas, aka Mr. Fontaine (who is resembling John Galt from Atlas Shrugged), is pictured as an evil person. The makers of Bioshock certainly didn't seem to agree with Rand's ideas and see it as potential danger.

[Mace]

Bioshock is actually a sharply critical depiction of Rand's philosophy and principles in practice. Eventhough Andrew Ryan seems to be mirroring Ayn Rand's ideas and opinions, which makes the game look like its affirmative of Rand's ideas, the character of Atlas, aka Mr. Fontaine (who is resembling John Galt from Atlas Shrugged), is pictured as an evil person. The makers of Bioshock certainly didn't seem to agree with Rand's ideas and see it as potential danger.

I don't think the writers are all that critical of Ayn Rand. All in all, I believe Andrew Ryans paradise for the individual was turned into something he didn't dream of happening, because of manipulative minds like Frank Fontaine/Atlas (wanted the city) and Lamb (wanted it's people). I think the only criticism they gave of capitalism was that there is a possibility for men to organize against an individual, in the name of the greater good or of the few. Although, I don't really get the underlying message, that's what I took from it. On top of that, I don't really think they understand Austrian economics well enough to understand Rand's view points on the proper role of the economy with respect to men in a society.

[Mace]

Andrew Ryan is what made Bioshock. One of the most memorable characters of all time. "A man chooses, a slave obeys".

[Almril]

I don't think the writers are all that critical of Ayn Rand. All in all, I believe Andrew Ryans paradise for the individual was turned into something he didn't dream of happening, because of manipulative minds like Frank Fontaine/Atlas (wanted the city) and Lamb (wanted it's people). I think the only criticism they gave of capitalism was that there is a possibility for men to organize against an individual, in the name of the greater good or of the few. Although, I don't really get the underlying message, that's what I took from it. On top of that, I don't really think they understand Austrian economics well enough to understand Rand's view points on the proper role of the economy with respect to men in a society.

This game is a takedown of Rand's philosophies, basically coming to the conclusion that any practical implementation of Randism would inevitably devolve into anarchy. Ryan tried to set up Galt's gulch with all its intended advantages, all he got instead were imperfect human beings who played each other and ended up killing each other. Rand is a lot like Marx, living in pie in the sky fantasy land, that doesn't take into account that actual human beings have to run things.

[IceNine]

This game is a takedown of Rand's philosophies, basically coming to the conclusion that any practical implementation of Randism would inevitably devolve into anarchy. Ryan tried to set up Galt's gulch with all its intended advantages, all he got instead were imperfect human beings who played each other and ended up killing each other. Rand is a lot like Marx, living in pie in the sky fantasy land, that doesn't take into account that actual human beings have to run things.

More practically, it is a critique of human nature and greed. The same EXACT outcome would happen if it was a grand underwater commune run under communist principles. The philosophy was just a set piece and the game was not meant to be their subversive attack on Ayn Rand; it was much more clever than that silly shit.

[IceNine]

Bioshock is actually a sharply critical depiction of Rand's philosophy and principles in practice. Eventhough Andrew Ryan seems to be mirroring Ayn Rand's ideas and opinions, which makes the game look like its affirmative of Rand's ideas, the character of Atlas, aka Mr. Fontaine (who is resembling John Galt from Atlas Shrugged), is pictured as an evil person. The makers of Bioshock certainly didn't seem to agree with Rand's ideas and see it as potential danger.

Bioshock is actually critical of human nature, not necessarily Ayn Rand. The philosophy is only a set piece.

[IceNine]

CGW: Ayn Rand and utopian ideals often come up in interviews with you....

Ken Levine: When it comes to philosophy, I go for the breakfast-buffet approach...a little bit of this, a little bit of that. BioShock is less about objectivism and more about extremism. When any philosophy gets taken too far, trouble follows. An ideologue can never admit he or she is wrong, never admit any flaw in his or her philosophy. Rand had a bunch of great ideas--brilliant ideas, even--but at the end of the day, she was an ideologue.

******

Eurogamer: Your narrative ends up feeling like a critique of objectivism - there seems to be a strong political view behind it. Is that your own point of view, or even something you share?

Ken Levine: It's funny, because you have half the people saying that - and you have half the people saying, it's objectivism boosterism.

Eurogamer: I'm not really sure where they get that idea from...

Ken Levine: It's an amazing accomplishment, right? The city itself is a pretty amazing accomplishment...

Eurogamer: Up to the point where they all start killing each other.

Ken Levine: Well, we kill each other here, too. Is a great nation not a great accomplishment because it goes to a horrible war? England's been to a lot of wars, does that mean it's not an amazing nation?

Chris Kline: It's more of a treatise on extremism than on objectivism.


******


Sterling: In regard to Andrew Ryan (BioShock's villain), which sounds like a play on Ayn Rand, and the dystopic concepts presented within the game, would you say that BioShock is an indictment of objectivist ideology?

Ken Levine: Here's my favorite thing in the world about BioShock: I was on the forums; I think it was Slashdot or something that someone pointed me toward. There was one guy saying, "this asshole! This communist asshole! He's taking down objectivism!" There was another saying, "I don't want to play a game that's some sort of Republican screed about free-market bullshit!" I really love the fact that two people can look at the game and take away two totally different opinions on it. The game is not about answering questions and coming up with solutions; it's about asking questions. When you start the game and ride down the bathysphere and you see Ryan's short film asking, "is man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?" that's a hard question to say no to. And, I dig it. But then there's Rapture, and I like that sort of opaqueness in storytelling, because I don't think there are black and whites.

*******

Unsurprisingly, BioShock has some pretty interesting cultural reference points. "BioShock really leverages all aspects of the mid-20th century," Levine says. "The art, the music, the architecture, the politics, and then spins them into a freakish offshoot of society that sealed itself in a bit of a time capsule at the bottom of the ocean." More specifically, it's influenced by the writings of Ayn Rand and George Orwell. "Well, the game does take place in a failed semi-objectivist Utopia! However, unlike Rand, we tried to take the concept of Utopia and examine it as if it were built not by gods dressed like men, but by flesh and blood people with real flaws. And unlike Orwell's 1984, we wanted to show a Utopia whose intentions were good, that really had a chance to work if people could just not be so… human."

********

Afrogamer: One of the things about the first game was that although it was in some senses an indictment of objectivism, it portrayed Ryan sympathetically as well. Is that the kind of treatment you give Sophia, or are you kind of with Ryan on this one?

Jordan Thomas: I have to tell you, I find sympathetic villains far more interesting as a writer and as a player, and so Sophia Lamb… I hope the player sees her point half the time. I think, you know, Rapture is the place where good ideas go bad, and you’re supposed to start going, “You know, she’s kinda right,” and by the end be like, “Ah, ah lady, aaaaah, you did that in the name of the greater good? Ouch.” And so my hope is that the player kind of decides where they fall on that continuum.
We don’t… BioShock is a game that doesn’t judge. We put you in a place of new moral context and say, “What do you think?” And so over the course of the game I hope the player realises he or she’s being handed the reins of authorship.


********



So, with those quotes from the developers you can see that they were not being critical of Ayn Rand, but, as I said, human nature... the outcome is the same on either end, Rand or Marx. You will note that Andrew Ryan (Rand) was the villain in the first and Sophia Lamb (Marx) was the villain in part 2. The end was the same and they were not taking sides. They were far too clever for that.

[TheAnalogKid]

So, with those quotes from the developers you can see that they were not being critical of Ayn Rand, but, as I said, human nature... the outcome is the same on either end, Rand or Marx. You will note that Andrew Ryan (Rand) was the villain in the first and Sophia Lamb (Marx) was the villain in part 2. The end was the same and they were not taking sides. They were far too clever for that.

Excellent. I definitely agree with this. I wonder had Levine been involved in 2, if it would have taken a similar approach.

[RushGirl2112]

Excellent. I definitely agree with this. I wonder had Levine been involved in 2, if it would have taken a similar approach.

[Shoeless]

So, with those quotes from the developers you can see that they were not being critical of Ayn Rand, but, as I said, human nature... the outcome is the same on either end, Rand or Marx. You will note that Andrew Ryan (Rand) was the villain in the first and Sophia Lamb (Marx) was the villain in part 2. The end was the same and they were not taking sides. They were far too clever for that.

I largely agree with your take on it, it makes sense logically.

But I'm still going to personally take it as an indictment of Objectivism purely on the grounds of my own personal dislike of the philosophy. I thought Rand had some interesting ideas until I realized that Objectivism essentially gives people an excuse to act like jerks and then pass it off as "I don't expect an unenlightened plebe like you to understand or approve of my more advanced stature."

I'm sure that not all people that embrace Objectivism are jerks but in my personal experience, I never encountered an Objectivist who wasn't mean, arrogant, condescending and answered any criticism of behavior with "You're not advanced enough to understand."

[IceNine]

I largely agree with your take on it, it makes sense logically.

But I'm still going to personally take it as an indictment of Objectivism purely on the grounds of my own personal dislike of the philosophy. I thought Rand had some interesting ideas until I realized that Objectivism essentially gives people an excuse to act like jerks and then pass it off as "I don't expect an unenlightened plebe like you to understand or approve of my more advanced stature."

I'm sure that not all people that embrace Objectivism are jerks but in my personal experience, I never encountered an Objectivist who wasn't mean, arrogant, condescending and answered any criticism of behavior with "You're not advanced enough to understand."

I think you are experiencing the games the way the developers intended. They wanted you to make the judgment call on right or wrong. Bioshock 1 had an objectivist villain and Bioshock 2 had a communist villain.

Now, on to objectivism and other philosophies... anyone who claims that you aren't advanced enough to understand them isn't advanced enough to put forth an argument.

[Shoeless]

Now, on to objectivism and other philosophies... anyone who claims that you aren't advanced enough to understand them isn't advanced enough to put forth an argument.

I also came to that conclusion, but it's amazing how in college so many people use Objectivism as an excuse to cheat on their girlfriends and write it off as pursuing a higher purpose.