Forza vs GT

**cuco33** · 09-21-2012 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by DaveS1138

And in Forza you know you're on the Nord for 2 1/2 miles longer than you should do.

Yes, you've only mentioned this a good 1472 times by now. It isn't the only track in the games and if you want to discuss track accuracy don't only talk about Nord, is the point I'm getting at. It seems ALL you discuss about track models, details and accuracy is Nord Nord Nord Nord and Nord.

I find it amazing you could suggest that a track being 1 mile longer than it should be "isn't that bad"......wow.....some "sim racer" fan you are if you have no problem with a track being 1 mile longer than the real life most iconic track in the world is huh?

Except it isn't 1 mile.......Evo did his own analysis.....so did this guy who measures it at 2 1/4 miles longer than the real track.

thats an almost 20% error........ 2 1/4 freekin miles dude......and you think it's "not that bad" ??????

and you actually have the cheak to compare that to Leguna Seca having a dip that isn't as pronounced as you think it should be (even though I have posted videos previously from somebody who has raced on the real life track and in GT5 and comments on how accurate it is).....

I guess PD should have just added an extra mile onto Leguna Seca and then at least you would think it "wasn't that bad".

Sorry but I find it amazing how you continue to have such a death grip on Nord versions between both games when I have more than a hundred times by now, easy, fully acknowledged that GT5's version, although not perfect itself (it isn't lazer scanned afterall) is mcuh better than FM4's version. Still, the fact remains that when you race on Nord you know you are on Nord. You don't think you are on any other track. You know damn well you are on Nord.
With the whole longer length I've read mixed talk about how long it really is. I've read some folks do a lot of testing a lot of different ways coming up with different results. 1 guy setup a race and let the AI do a full lap so it tells you distance you are behind, and when the AI crossed the finish line it said you are 20900 meters behind (20.9km, which is what Nord's track length is). I've read about timed runs doing 40mph and 60mph while referencing the lap time to get distance. I've read similar to what evo did by driving on 1 side of the track as well, and I've even read that the odometer is off or wrong since the game shows 12.9mi but the odometer reads differently. Lots of talk and discussion over this, but in the end I've read it is accurate to a few meters to it's 1mile longer to it's over 2miles longer. In the end you know you are on Nord, even if it's not modeled as well as GT5's version, it still is a well modeled track that you know for a FACT you are on Nord and not on another track. The funny bit is that the video you posted is about FM3, not FM4, FM3... while doing estimation by running the track at a "constant" 60mph roughly on the suggested line. Not really the best analysis man, seriously, and especially since its FM3 and not FM4, where even T10 stated they've touched up, tweaked, and updated tracks like Nord (although not modeled from scratch). You are trying to argue which game has the track most accurate, when I and others have more than agreed GT5's is better, and to which not even GT5's is dead nuts accurate either. It's like comparing 5% error vs 10-15% error. NEITHER laser scan their tracks!!!! But hey, if you want GT5 to be 'the real Nordschleife simulator' then cool, pat yourself on the back. I'm not going to argue with you about that. There are other tracks in these games and if you want to continue track accuracy discussion, let's talk about other tracks aside from Nord Nord Nord Nord and Nord shall we?

If you want to continue talking about track inaccuracies, we can start off with Laguna Seca as I've raced on this track in many racing sims and on various platforms (including PC, even read that the laser scanned version in iRacing you have to watch your entry speed, throttle, steering adjustments on these dips or you're screwed), and I know for a fact that the real track has a few major dips down the main straight which can, and has completely thrown a car out of balance. In GT5 I can hammer through full throttle without any issue. This is only 1 small section of the entire track. GT5 has other issues with different corner radius and pitch on some of the turns, and even the corkscrew isn't the best modeled either. I don't go on with a death grip, I know the differences and the ENTIRE time I'm racing on it I know I'm on Laguna Seca. It's not laser scanned, not accurate to the millimeter, so I know there's going to be dips and bumps and wrong lengths and wrong corner radii and more, but if it's a close enough modeled track then I'm cool with it. I myself even read and seen videos about folks who have raced on this track in real life and stated that FM4's is better than GT5, but like Nord neither are perfect representations. GT5's version of LS though is OK just as FM4's Nord is OK.
As usual with you homey, GT to infinity and beyond!! lol

It's been talked about a half dozen times because YOU keep making the absurt claim that PD are the first people to use last gen assets in a next gen game.......and obviously every single time you do that I will point out the simple fact that the Nurburgring in Forza is so shockingly innacurate because they used last gen assets in their next gen game.....

double standard in full effect

Show me any game that has split content up like PD did with standard vs premium.
Show me any game that has split up features throughout the game, many of which are specific to that very standard vs premium split, or even specific to certain game modes.
You won't find any. Why? Because PD were the 1st (and hopefully LAST) to ever do something like this.

All games carry over some type of asset into the next game but they modify the data/model and keep it to the same standard as all other new data/models. This is not true for PD's GT5. A standard car does not look like it's made for the same game as a premium model. Legacy 'standard' tracks also do not look like they are made for the same game as the newer 'premium' tracks. Proof is in the pudding though, yet you keep spinning and neglecting facts. Go on Trial Mountain or High Speed Ring, then go on London or Rome, and tell me if they look to be made for the same standard. Do the same with any premium and standard car. You've got yourself a split in quality (and features). Nord in FM4 still looks like a track like every other FM4 track. The same goes for the cars, from the legacy carried over cars from as far back as FM1/2/3 to the very LATEST 2012 DLC models, as in they are built to the same level. Again, this is not true in GT5 hence the argument of how PD are the first and hopefully the last to ever pull this. And like I've said it's a fucking disgrace that people like you are fully OK with what PD did because it tells them and other developers that you are OK with last gen quality ports 'slightly upgraded to HD' and stuck as the bulk of content in a game made for this gen with this gen assets. It very much is one of the biggest black eyes you continue to defend, solely because GT to infinity and beyond! And I will repeat myself AGAIN... if it was T10, EA, Codemasters, simbin, or ANY racing developer to do such a thing they would be castrated publicly and murdered on the webs BUT because it's PD, because it's the GT franchise, because it's Sony's biggest franchise, it gets a pass...

Which is exactly the point and why its so funny every time you claim PD are the only people to have ever done this in any genre on any platform ever......

The Nurburgring in Forza is 2 1/4 miles longer than it should be......an almost 20% error in track length....and it is this way because the original model was made far wider with smooter corners than it should have so a more arcade racer could race on it.....Turn 10 have made tweeks but the track still carries over these shockingly large innacuracy and it means that pretty much every single part of the track is wrong.

In GT5 I cat set times that are within a couple of seconds of their real world counterparts......can you do that in Forza? Of course not.....because in Forza you have to drive an additional 2 1/4 miles to reach the finish line........and you criticise GT for calling itself the "real" driving simulator.

Well there's no dead nuts proof that Nord is in fact 2.25mi longer. Like mentioned above I've read and seen that it is fairly accurate length wise to it's only a mile longer to it's over 2miles longer. It still isn't the only track in the game and you know for a fact that you are on Nord. Also GT5's version, for the bajillionth time, is better modeled and better looking than any Forza version to date and if T10 wants to compete in being 'the console Nordschleife accuracy simulator' then they need to build it from the ground up as they acquired the original track model from PGR team who botched it to begin with. There are sections that are made intentionally wider not for more arcade racing (see how you go on dinging FM4 at ever opportunity you get like you say you don't? lulz) but for more enjoyable experience online. They knew the track wasn't perfect or as close to it as you can without laser scanning it, so they made some tweaks and adjustments. The wider sections aren't even throughout the entire freaken track either and is overblown by the GT faithful. I've ALREADY posted pics of an analysis some gtp and forza folks have done using the exact same car and FM4 version is only wider by 1/2 a car width. Only 1/2 a car width!!! lol
In GT5 you can get close to the real time if you have adjusted the mod list or tune. If you found a sweet spot of fairly close to real life, that's pretty cool but how do you know the digital build is exact to the real build? How do you know you got the right tire compound? Or the right suspension settings? Or the right aerodynamic? Or the right weight and power? So many variables that can be tweaked and modified to get closer or further to the real thing. And no one is arguing with you that Nord is better in GT5. This has been discussed to fucking death. If you were so passionate about Nord's accuracy in GT5 then why haven't you done the exact same regarding all the other real world tracks that both games have or compared to the real thing????

I don't criticize GT for PD dubbing it 'the real driving simulator' or 'the standard'. I bring this up because of your endless tirade of boosting GT on a pedestal with any cheap shots over death grips of PR speak, where you conveniently look the other way when PD or Sony does it entirely!!! 1 dead fucking nuts example of how it's only PR speak, 'the real driving simulator' does not allow you to adjust tire pressures. Do I need to go down another long list of what it also doesn't do or does wrong and still being dubbed 'the standard' and 'the real driving simulator'? I get it though man.. you're a huge GT/PD/Sony fan and you're heavily invested into it, so to you GT is the mecca, the alpha and the omega..

**cuco33** · 09-21-2012 10:59 AM

Before I forget, here's a quick one.

Dave, you being a big Aston Martin fan, took this pic the other day in FM4. Guess the Aston Martin this is:

**cuco33** · 09-21-2012 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by evolone

I dont know about you, but I care more about replay value than sales. Sure sales assure we get sequals, but once again sales are king? lmao Anyways Dave how could t10 release cars like the viper or any other car that came out AFTER F4 before anyone knows anything about it?

Dave quit playing, you know damn well that T10 has been releasing NEW cars (let me break it down for you, as in cars that were not out when F4 launched) as well as classics. What kind of fucking moron is actually going to buy another GTR...why because it has stickAAArrRRRzzzzzz? Again stickers in forza=bad, but PD sells a dupe car with stickers=awsome? I mean GT has what 5(not including nascar) cars that are 2010 and up? F4 has over well over 50 2010 and newer models. I mean if PD is just going to port them all to gt6 anyways, why not sell them as dlc now so we can enjoy new cars? Unless PD thinks that because the only car made after 2009 is a fucking GTR that they are not bothering to make other new cars. Oh, I forgot it takes PD 6 years to model a car.

You'd be surprised at how passionate the GT faithful are. Some actually purchased multiple paint chip DLC just to get a prototype version of a car from one of the last DLCs. Yes, payed real money for the joke of a paint chip, multiple times, to get the prototype version of a DLC car they already paid for...

2 of the 3 cars from this DLC should not have taken 6 months or whatever they claimed to model. The Subaru BRZ isn't all that much different than the Toyota GT86 or the Scion FRS. The GTR race version is basically a racemod of a normal GTR with stickaaarrrzz. The Honda HSV racer is the only real worthy one as it's new entirely to the series.

**cuco33** · 09-21-2012 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by DaveS1138

So you are admitting that Turn 10's decission to launch Forza 4 with less than half the number of cars as GT5 has made Forza loose it's replay value.....interesting....I mean I have suggested many times that Forza's rather suprising lack of features would have made me become bored with the game quickly and Cuco gets all upset with me when I say it......it's nice to see somebody else confirm it for me

And since you admit that Forza 4 lacks replay value without it's subscription model giving it a constant stream of DLC cars then what will happen to that replay value when those DLC packs stop in a couple of months time?

I don't get upset. I call it how I see it, BS statement about assumed boredom of a game you've never played. And GT5 having over double the car content was at the compromise of having 80% of the car list ported from last gen, in last gen quality, with split in features that the premiums have. Even the oldest model in FM4 that's been there since FM1 is still modeled to FM4 standard having the same features that ever car in FM4 has. Even the latest DLC cars are of this as well.
Every month there has been FM4 car DLC, and every month there are new rivals modes. Each DLC even has a free car given, so far 11 freebies have been given to anyone (and it's a smart idea as downloading the free car DLC each month also downloads the paid DLC car models so you don't see the ghosted Jetta4 car on the track. Only the Porsche DLC 'expansion' doesn't follow this practice, probably due to licensing as there is no free Porsche DLC and a mistake in my book... T10 should have some title update JUST to remove the ghosted Jetta4 that really is a Porsche of some sort. You need to purchase the Porsche DLC in order to see the Porsches)
There's a ton of replay value in both games. FM4's career events list is significantly bigger and will take much longer to complete than the entirety of GT5's events lists (including special events, licenses and even the seasonal events combined!)

of the around 100 cars that Turn 10 charge you for with your monthly subscription how many of them are cars that were revealed AFTER Forza 4 was released?

At launch T10 held back certain cars for certain things. You got LCE/VIP specific DLC cars. You got the 1st month's DLC as well (which sure probably could have put in the game but wasn't) but evo is dead on about newer cars like 2012 models amongst others that weren't modeled when FM4 launched in 2011. Car DLC is significantly in favor of FM4.

I'm curious if you know the differences between the 2011 and 2012 GT Academy GTR..... I'll give you a clue.....It's a HELL of a lot more than just stickaaaarrrrrzzzzzzzzz.......
Maybe check up on something like that before you comment on it.

As for GT5......their system is much simpler.....they give you more than double the amount of cars you get in Forza at launch......and those cars cover a far more diverse amount of driving styles than Forza can dream off.....racing karts to Formula 1 cars and pretty much everything inbetween

Yes they give you over double the amount of cars... by porting 800 from last gen... by padding and duping significantly more than what T10 did as in 80 Skylines where 11 are the same R34 GT-R and 8 are the same R33 model as just 1 of many examples. The car list in both games comes down to what you want more. GT5 has a more diverse lineup of car types but in my opinion FM4's car list is still superior as in there's more cars I want to drive in FM4 than there is in GT5. Nice to have karts and F1 and whatnot though. I personally want to see FM5 get open wheel cars. I don't care if they don't add a Formula open wheeler. I'd rather see street based open wheel cars like the Caterham 7 or the Aerial Atom or the KTM Xbow, amongst many others.

**cuco33** · 09-21-2012 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by DaveS1138

The track was made wider for the more arcade minded racer so they could drive more easily on it and have more places to overtake. That widening changes pretty much every corner in the game. You cant widen a track and keep the profile of the corner the same, just the fact you can enter the corner from further out and exit it later should tell you that.

But yes it does effect the track everywhere. Turn 10 have had the option to remodel that track for Forza 2, 3 or 4. Instead they chose to re use an old last gen asset and just pretty it up as best they could.....something Cuco seems to feel nobody but PD has ever done on any game in any genre on any platform ever!!!

It seems you don't even bother reading my posts or the facts of the situation. AGAIN... PGR team modeled the track initially, and didn't do the best job with it. T10 got Nord from this very PGR team's work. T10 modified and tweaked it a bit throughout each Forza game to improve it. Part of this, they widened certain sections for overtaking as they knew the track wasn't dead on accurate, and wider as in 1/2 a car length only. For T10 to get a more accurate Nord they need to start it from scratch, preferably laser scanned like iRacing devs do with their track modeling. How long did it take PD to model GT5? T10 wasn't even in existence then!

Again Dave, it's pretty freaken simple. Go into GT5. Grab any car. Go into practice mode. Select London or Rome or Madrid. Back out. Select High Speed Ring or Trial Mountain. Not honestly tell me if all of these tracks look to be modeled to the same standard and are from the same game.
I'll answer it for you. No, no it doesn't.
In FM4 you can go on NurbGP or Nord, Hockenheim or Infenion, Laguna Seca or Sedona, Top Gear track (any variation) or Indy, etc etc and in FM4 all tracks are modeled to the same standard. Go ahead, I know your response.. you're going to post the bridge to nowhere from FM4's Nord which can only be seen when driving backwards on a track.

**Badger3920** · 09-22-2012 04:49 PM

If the discussion is whether forza's rendition of the 'Ring is accurate or faithful, then we don't need paragraphs and justifications. The answer is simply no. If the discussion is whether the same level of quality extends throughout all of GT5's tracks, the discussion is equally simple. What's with such tap dancing?

You guys are so entrenched against one another that you can't even concede the obvious??

**DaveS1138** · 09-23-2012 07:10 AM

There is no need to tar everybody with that same brush. I have had no problem conceding that the tracks in GT5 differ in quality. It's precisely why I point out in the rain video that I am taxing the system to the max by using a "premium" track. Or that the standard cars are clearly not the same quality as the premiums.

I don't deny for a second that I post as a GT fanboy. But with so many examples you can use there is no reason to add things I havent said to the list.

**DaveS1138** · 09-23-2012 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by evolone

Dude is ANOTHER GTR which is almost identical to the OTHER GTR's. There are dozens of OTHER makes and models that are not represented at all in GT5 and them beginning production in 2006 is starting to show its age by lack of new cars...except the 300 versions of the GTR.

The GT-R has been around since the 60's and GT5 has around 60 nissan GT-R's out of a car list that currently stands at 1086. Now maybe my maths is a little rusty but doesn't that leave over 1000 cars that aren't GT-R's? To claim they are all "almost identical" is just silly.......are these almost identical?

The thing I always find funny about there "PD gave you too many GT-R" type arguments is that even if PD hadn't given you one single GT-R......even if they had cut every single one of them out of the game.....you would still have double the number of cars in GT5 that Forza 4 had.

Originally Posted by evolone

At least t10 is listening to its fan base and giving us cars that we actually want and new cars to boot.

Witholding over 100 cars from the game so they can use a monthly subscription model to double the cost of the game if you want all the content, With Forza 4 you pay $120 and still get only about half the content in GT5.......yeah......Turn 10 are really doing you a favor

and according to you they had to release all this DLC to give Forza 4 any replay value......What are you going to do next month when the DLC dries up?

Originally Posted by evolone

You can yap all you want about gt5's 8,000,000,000 cars, but when 7,999,999,800 of them are from ps2, its not really a bragging point.

and what's wrong with that? They dont look as good as the premiums obviously but they all share the same physics and damage model......so what's so bad about including them?

Are you honeslty telling me this looks like a PS2 game?

Originally Posted by evolone

Again t10 is giving us new cars and great classics, pd gives you fucking gtr's with different stickarrrzzz.

Again t10 is charging you $60 extra if you want the full game, pd gave you more than double the number of cars from the begining with the most diverse collection of cars ever found in a sim racer. From racing karts to Formula 1 and pretty much everything in between.

**DaveS1138** · 09-23-2012 08:13 AM