Forza vs GT

[michealo]

You expect something different if we're still hammering on over floatiness from assumptions and not actual experience? Indy is the only person in this entire thread, or anywhere really, that has claimed to play FM4 and have the same Aladdin style driving as found in previous Forzas which is funny because my copy, amongst everyone else that I know who's played it has not experienced this at all.

Congrats on your copy of FM4. Don't recall if you've ever played previous Forza games but I'm sure you'll enjoy it. Now just pull the trigger and get yourself a copy of GT5, so you can go for a quadruple standard

What do indy's points have to do with me? Using anecdotal evidence to combat anecdotal evidence is silly. Makes for good jollies, I suppose.

Oh, I'll likely enjoy forza 4, but that's not what my primary goal in playing it is
How long do I have to play before the "at least i've played it!" cry goes away? Just powering it on? Winning the first race? A few achievements? Applied stickarz? Autovista mode? Just trying to get a feel for when I magically become credible and you and forza begin to stop pretending to be persecuted against (double standard #2).

I played the demo of forza 3 and enjoyed it, but we know why I didn't play it beyond that.
No thanks on GT5, I'd like to keep up the illusion of double standard #1 that I gave it a free pass by refusing to play it because of standard cars.

[Indy_aka_Rex]

You made a very bold statement about the track side models, one of which anyone who's spent any decent amount of time would know that was simply untrue.

Bold statement indeed! Hyperbole much? I used it as a point to mock your own argument, and I was wrong... Whoops! What did I do? Admit I was wrong, because rather than looking at everything unrelated to driving, I was focusing on driving... in a game about driving. Bold indeed.

Especially if you only played the career like world tour and events list only you'd always be seeing the people models in the grand stands. Only when you go into time trial stuff is when you see these models disappear to give you that solo time trial feel as it's not an actual race event.

Oddly you notice every single detail unrelated to driving in GT5, yet completely overlook the poorly detailed track sections in Forza 4.

To me, in GT5 post v2.03 with tracks like London, it's clear as day and obvious as can be with the models that go away with 12+ car grid and I'm not purposely looking for it either.

Of course you do. Strange how you only seem to notice those things and it's the one post 2.03 patch "fix" that you constantly bring up. I wonder if it's "clear as day" because you read it on the internet somewhere when the report first surfaced. No one else seems to be as anal about it as you.

I also recall you were the one going with a list off of dupes in both games and took a stance over how FM4 does it as bad percentage wise while including different car models as dupes in FM4 but counting same car models as different in GT5

You must have faulty memory then, because I said no such thing. You're welcome to find the post, though I don't believe you actually could find it as I never said anything of the sort.

amongst the whole hard stance that you think there's this Aladdin ride in FM4 (and if you've played previous Forzas you'd see how that is simply not true at all as you'd see firsthand the magic carpet ride in those games).. so you tell me what else I should believe from you since you we know where you're going with it..

And yet oddly, not only am I not the only person to state that Forza 4 feels that way, I'm amongst quite a few people that have, including reviewers. Hell, not only was the ISR review posted wherein they mention it, Ergo went the extra mile and found another video where they make a similar claim! But yeah, it's just me... Or maybe cuco, maybe you're just too biased to realize it.

[cuco33]

It was a response to your 'haha the cycle continues.' remark.

As is ALL OF GAMING, it's a form of entertainment and the intent is to have fun.
I like how you're hammering on over what classifies as being credible but still don't say a word over those who have not played a game they talk so much about and continue to hammer on over it's lack of enjoyment, features and modes and even physics lol.
Me and forza are persecuted? Back to the fabricated arguments and grand assumptions it seems....

And let's not play coy here over folks like Dave and Indy hmmmkay

[michealo]

It was a response to your 'haha the cycle continues.' remark.

As is ALL OF GAMING, it's a form of entertainment and the intent is to have fun.
I like how you're hammering on over what classifies as being credible but still don't say a word over those who have not played a game they talk so much about and continue to hammer on over it's lack of enjoyment, features and modes and even physics lol.
Me and forza are persecuted? Back to the fabricated arguments and grand assumptions it seems....

And let's not play coy here over folks like Dave and Indy hmmmkay

Perfect example of double standard #2.
Pretending I don't question Dave or label him as biased.
Something you admitted, denied, then angrily denied.

Nervous about double standard #1 overwhelming you?
Indy has at least played forza yet you have new excuses, which will you use against me? If your suggesting Indy wears similar shoes when comparing the two titles, then the delusion is out of control.

[cuco33]

Bold statement indeed! Hyperbole much? I used it as a point to mock your own argument, and I was wrong... Whoops! What did I do? Admit I was wrong, because rather than looking at everything unrelated to driving, I was focusing on driving... in a game about driving. Bold indeed.

Cool beans, so then what's your stance on the FM4 Nordschliefe bridge-to-nowhere that continues to be brought up, a track side model issue that you only see it in reverse and not actually racing?

Oddly you notice every single detail unrelated to driving in GT5, yet completely overlook the poorly detailed track sections in Forza 4.

Actually no. You go into a London or Rome track and then proceed to go to a Trial Mountain or High Speed Ring and you can tell the difference in track models and quality cuz it's night and day difference.
And I've already noted some of the poorly modeled track sections in FM4 but I don't continue to hammer away at it cuz BOTH GT5 and FM4 have issues like the piss poorly modeled 3D spectators in FM4 or 2D spectator models in GT5, or how about the shitty modeled track side parked cars in both games? I've mentioned a few times the 2D X trees or copy-n-pasted trees in GT5 which you don't notice much while driving until you see replays or take pics. But hey, who am I to point out the obvious in both games right?

Of course you do. Strange how you only seem to notice those things and it's the one post 2.03 patch "fix" that you constantly bring up. I wonder if it's "clear as day" because you read it on the internet somewhere when the report first surfaced. No one else seems to be as anal about it as you.

I see we're not assuming what I see and don't see now... Go and race on a London track in a 12- car grid, then repeat the race with a 12+ car grid and get back to me if it looks like it's noticeable or not.. cuz seeing fans in the stands and streets and flags waiving is quite a bit different than NOT seeing any spectators or flags while racing. And like I pointed out I'D RATHER HAVE THIS to improve performance than to deal with frame stutters or screen tearing cuz I'm the type that goes for performance rather than prettiness with the likelihood of performance hits.
Why would GT/Sony fan(boy)s complain about issues with their beloved exclusive title?
They don't... 'because Gran Turismo...'
It's why they still continue defending ANY issue in GT5 especially including the whole standard vs premium debacle

You must have faulty memory then, because I said no such thing. You're welcome to find the post, though I don't believe you actually could find it as I never said anything of the sort.

I know Dave participated in that discussion as well but but no faulty memory here... YOU were very much part of that discussion a month or two back. Maybe it's you with the faulty memory? Pass the joint a few more times rather than be greedy, pot has a tendency to make people forget
It was over the whole discussion of dupes and how both games do it but GT5 does it more, and the discussion got spun towards percentages while including certain DIFFERENT cars as dupes for 1 game but counting the SAME car model as being different for the other . I even pointed out the S2000 in both games and how I can build a Mugen S2000 in FM4 but it's not counted as different car, and how I wouldn't be saying different cars in GT5 if 1-3hp difference and 0-10kg weight difference if the only thing different in the model itself is 1 car has clear turn signals and the other has EU spec amber turn signals, cuz the car model itself and it's specs are essentially the same exact thing.

And yet oddly, not only am I not the only person to state that Forza 4 feels that way, I'm amongst quite a few people that have, including reviewers. Hell, not only was the ISR review posted wherein they mention it, Ergo went the extra mile and found another video where they make a similar claim! But yeah, it's just me... Or maybe cuco, maybe you're just too biased to realize it.

ISR did not mention floaty feel. ISR did not mention floaty feel. ISR did not mention floaty feel.
Did you get it yet? Here, lemme say it again cuz ISR did not mention floaty feel.
They laughed once, mentioned in 1 review a 'Forza feel' and said it's a bit on the arcade side (which GT is as well if you want to take a core PC sim stance... and if you have a wheel, go and try out some PC sims and see how much harder and more realistic they are compared to BOTH GT and Forza games... but I still say BOTH GT and Forza games are sims cuz they feel real and simulate things unlike a sim-cade or arcade racer does). Dave then went on and on... and on and on... and continues to go on and on over grand assumption over floatiness that does not exist in FM4. Maybe folks are used to the more cockpit shake in GT5 and expect GT5 to be the bar but it should be reality, not GT5, as the reference.
Ergo's video is some Indian gamer kid who's obviously a big GT fan, even admitted how much time he's spent on GT5 and how little time he's spent on FM4. You know what the latest discussion on a few GT/FM sites are stating from folks who are multiplatform and play both games? That to have some type of relevance on both games and their physics is to spend quite a good amount of time in both, something around the 10hrs or more of actual race time, various cars and various car layouts. Cuz they too are tired of the GT fanboys who continue to make comparisons to GT and not real life, and continue to defend everything GT even making grandiose claims over kiddy arcade gameplay... of a game they too have never played. Imagine that... lmao!
Who here has done that on this site? I know I have, anyone else? *crickets*
ISR? Oh wait, their 1st review was only 4hrs of actual race time in game... but they are not credible and we're making assumptions, while neglecting all the contradictions throughout.. and they apparently are the 'pros I brought into discussion' who now 'stabbed me in the back' lmao
This newly credible Indian gamer kid? Nope, he himself said he's only just started playing Forza and has spent a lot of time with GT5.
What about biased Sony folk who claimed they've played FM4 but couldn't even tell if there were people in the stands during races, or count different cars as dupes, or tag along the floaty feel talk?
How about people who haven't played one of the games, as in like at all, let alone if pad or wheel...

Maybe I should make my own video and because it's on the interwebs I'd now be credible source? No wait... that can't happen cuz I might say something negative about GT5 and positive about FM4 and that nonsense and fallacy just can't happen... lol

Like I said... tried and true time and time again...
'because Gran Turismo...'

I've more than given examples of various topics of discussion and the response has been based on assumptions to no reply at all... simply put... 'because Gran Turismo'

cmon folks... we're better than this

[cuco33]

Perfect example of double standard #2.
Pretending I don't question Dave or label him as biased.
Something you admitted, denied, then angrily denied.

Nervous about double standard #1 overwhelming you?
Indy has at least played forza yet you have new excuses, which will you use against me? If your suggesting Indy wears similar shoes when comparing the two titles, then the delusion is out of control.

Should I bring back the dozen or more posts you've made in this thread that have all been in succession and all have been made directly at me, off topic entirely, without a single one towards Dave or anyone on the GT/Sony bandwagon? Cuz I'm sure if I go back to it I can bring up way more than the dozen I pointed out in straight succession... let's not play dumb here Mich...


According to Indy, he has played Forza 4. And he tried dinging it for something so damn obvious when I WAS posting about the v2.03 patch in GT5 as being like for like as fact, i.e. the track side models going away which he was wrong, and admitted it so. He also went on this big talk over the dupe discussion and counted different cars as dupes for 1 game but not the other way around. He's also obviously one of the proSony folks here and you see it, easily, in his posts so his bias is more than obvious, especially in this thread, especially over GT/Sony. Just sayin..

He's also only played it with a pad and has not mentioned what game settings he's played with cuz obviously if you play on normal or assisted game play in FM4 is on par with playing with assists in GT5 (such as SRF on) and it makes it not a sim but arcadey like. Also pads in both games generally toss in buffers and some type of assist. I could act like an elitist prick and say that he hasn't played with a wheel but even with a pad in both games you can essentially characterize each game to a certain degree, and can easily see how the car handles in FM4 unlike previous Forzas, as in that Aladdin ride that was there before is not there now. In GT5 there's more camera shake in some views, maybe this is what folks are thinking about the Aladdin ride cuz it's there in FM4 just not as pronounced as in GT5. And that's not really the Aladdin ride we're referring to... that six flags season pass spectacle is regarding the car's handling, the weight shift into a turn, the acceleration and braking, etc that yields a glide effect, a hovering Superman over the road status if you will and in FM4 weight shift is there, the Aladdin ride is not. Like I pointed out with facts and examples and experience, from Laguna Seca with a Challenger to basically Lancia Delta or E30 M3 or VW Scirrocco on Nurburgring GP, amongst many others... but we side with assumptions, many of which are from folks who have never played the game... and we know why

I am absolutely pissing myself at how definitively anal we get, word for word to the Nth freaken degree on what PD says or does, going down this massive 300+ times mentioning of 'definitive' arrogant PR speak and how they never said promise and how they only would like something to have been done..
all why neglecting 'the standard' or 'the real driving simulator' slogans...
all while we hold absolute death grips over assumptions from folks who have never played the game and yield opinionated fact from a laugh!!
lmao

Amazonitus in full fucken swing y'all!
'because Gran Turismo...'

[DaveS1138]

Its the players fault that the racing softs are pretty much velcro tires on a velcro track?

No.

It is however the players fault if they buy super sticky tyres for their car....install them.....race on them......and then complain that the car is super sticky.

[michealo]

Should I bring back the dozen or more posts you've made in this thread that have all been in succession and all have been made directly at me, off topic entirely, without a single one towards Dave or anyone on the GT/Sony bandwagon? Cuz I'm sure if I go back to it I can bring up way more than the dozen I pointed out in straight succession... let's not play dumb here Mich...


According to Indy, he has played Forza 4. And he tried dinging it for something so damn obvious when I WAS posting about the v2.03 patch in GT5 as being like for like as fact, i.e. the track side models going away which he was wrong, and admitted it so. He also went on this big talk over the dupe discussion and counted different cars as dupes for 1 game but not the other way around. He's also obviously one of the proSony folks here and you see it, easily, in his posts so his bias is more than obvious, especially in this thread, especially over GT/Sony. Just sayin..

He's also only played it with a pad and has not mentioned what game settings he's played with cuz obviously if you play on normal or assisted game play in FM4 is on par with playing with assists in GT5 (such as SRF on) and it makes it not a sim but arcadey like. Also pads in both games generally toss in buffers and some type of assist. I could act like an elitist prick and say that he hasn't played with a wheel but even with a pad in both games you can essentially characterize each game to a certain degree, and can easily see how the car handles in FM4 unlike previous Forzas, as in that Aladdin ride that was there before is not there now. In GT5 there's more camera shake in some views, maybe this is what folks are thinking about the Aladdin ride cuz it's there in FM4 just not as pronounced as in GT5. And that's not really the Aladdin ride we're referring to... that six flags season pass spectacle is regarding the car's handling, the weight shift into a turn, the acceleration and braking, etc that yields a glide effect, a hovering Superman over the road status if you will and in FM4 weight shift is there, the Aladdin ride is not. Like I pointed out with facts and examples and experience, from Laguna Seca with a Challenger to basically Lancia Delta or E30 M3 or VW Scirrocco on Nurburgring GP, amongst many others... but we side with assumptions, many of which are from folks who have never played the game... and we know why

I am absolutely pissing myself at how definitively anal we get, word for word to the Nth freaken degree on what PD says or does, going down this massive 300+ times mentioning of 'definitive' arrogant PR speak and how they never said promise and how they only would like something to have been done..
all why neglecting 'the standard' or 'the real driving simulator' slogans...
all while we hold absolute death grips over assumptions from folks who have never played the game and yield opinionated fact from a laugh!!
lmao

Amazonitus in full fucken swing y'all!
'because Gran Turismo...'

I thought you wanted to stop wearing the floppy shoes?

Again, why throw Indy's opinion at me when his agenda isn't coming back to the thread after a ragequit to troll with catch phrases? He's entitled to his thoughts and I'm not going to defend forza like you feel obligated to.
I see you didn't mention Coldfoot, you suddenly remember I called him out repeatedly?
How many times do you have to ignore when i post that i think Dave is biased like you before another meltdown occurs?. Wonder why he doesn't contest and start crying about persecution?

You must really be scared that I'm going to play forza 4 and the "at least I played it" whine is going to die. Are you saving "you played it with a gamepad so you're not credible" for me? I truly hope so

Who's "ya'll"? You are completely alone is smackdown jollies town.
Hilarious you haven't noticed yet that I don't question anything you say about GT and still ignore that I've always agreed with you that forza is the better game. I wonder if this will change after I played it

[evolone]

No.

It is however the players fault if they buy super sticky tyres for their car....install them.....race on them......and then complain that the car is super sticky.

There is sticky and there is stupid sticky. GT5 offers both.

[DaveS1138]

There is sticky and there is stupid sticky. GT5 offers both.

Agreed.

Stupid sticky is just another form of assist available for the more novice driver. You can use anything from driving on ice through simulation of the real world tyre through super sticky. It's very easy to choose the level you want to try based on your ability in the game.
I do like the way PD stop you from using the stupid sticky tyres for things like the time trials and seasonal events though

[DaveS1138]

Whatever floats your boat dave... you CONTINUE to hammer on about floaty physics, started long before indy even said anything and continue to go on with it, still making assumptions over some comments the now professional expert ISR team stated and even twisting Scaff's own words... so no... you're not stating nor implying it at all...
lulz....

I continue to hammer on that people that have played Forza say it has floaty physics......they say it was there in Forza 3 (something you freely admit) and they say that whilst noticably reduced it is still there in Forza 4. (something you say you dont feel but then you cant feel lift off oversteer in GT5 either so........you know.........)

Anyone who's played GT5 has instantly felt lift off oversteer? There's been threads on GTP alone that complained over how dumbed down it is. But hey, you can go on making assumptions to continue defending GT brah. And you of course... still go on about the floatiness over a game you've never played, as in ever... we get it homey.. we get it...

If they could all feel the lift off oversteer was too dumbed down then they were obviously feeling it.......how exactly does this help your claim that most cars in GT5 dont have it at all?

So wouldn't the tires PD put on as default be what you expect to be the stock tires that come with the car? If so, then explain to me why the Lotus Elise in the Top Gear Special Event has the car on comfort tires when the default tire on even the base Elise model are high performance

Because in the special event the tyres are being made more slippy to make the challenge tougher for the player.........D'UH!

Yokes meant for grip? So is it more realistic to go with a less grip tire or to slap some stickier rubber? Or am I to do trial and error until I find something that might represent more realistic grip? Cuz then we come to the issue of the same lateral grip using the same tire REGARDLESS of the car, as in Mini Cooper S and a C6R Corvette racer will have the same later Gs if on the same tire compound and that simply is not realistic at all. That's not even including the fact that GT5 doesn't take into account at all the tire contact size with the road or sidewall deformation amongst other things.
Remember that I did a full blown test using the same car, same specs, same track, using the default tires vs using the stickiest tires and it could be a track modeling issue but lap times showed that FM4 using the racing slicks was still 3-4 seconds slower than GT5 using the default tires... and in GT5 it was easier and less realistic to drive because I was able to hammer through turns a lot easier. In FM4 I had to even struggle on the main straight if pushing for fastest lap time cuz the dips on the main straight would throw the car off balance, you know this mysterious weight shift that doesn't happen and magic carpet ride that I'm on should glide over these surfaces unscathed.. It was also much easier to correct a mistake in GT5 than it was in FM4. And note, I still haven't completed my like for like comparison in both games like the EK Civic around Tsukuba or a R34 Skyline GT-R around Suzuka.

No you can very easily look up the correct tyres for the car you are using.

Whilst your at it why not complete a like for like comparisson on the Nurburgring

This doesn't even go down the path of why are there different physics for online vs offline? Why can I barely roll over a car in one mode but not roll over a car at all in another mode? And if GT5's physics were the supreme peak console like you want to imply, then perfect physics wouldn't need to be adjusted in patches now would it?

I couldn't comment on the ease of rolling a car over in either mode. I have only ever rolled a car once in GT5 as the result of maxing out a Veyron to see what would happen and discovering it turns even more like an oil tanker when you do that........

I still hold that stance about both games have great physics so no Dave, it's now about my little rant about the Cobra or many of the other things that I have experienced in GT5 personally or replicated from findings on the interwebs about both games. My stance about which game was better overall with physics changed slightly and only once when I had played FM4 with a wheel POST WHEEL BUG FIX PATCH cuz it just changed things greatly. With a pad and in sim steering it changed a bit because being able to correct a mistake was very similar to how it was in FM2 and FM3 with the counterassist bug, and post patch you basically lost it, spun out and that counterassist wasn't there anymore. With a wheel, and I have limited time with a wheel pre FM4 patch (I tried on one of my x360s that wasn't connected online so the last patch wasn't added, I could muck around by deleting the patch save but don't want to mess around with that) it felt different but I like how it is now so I did the update on that system too.

Yes the last couple of days your stance on the physics of both games has been much more measured than your rants of the last few weeks. It's good to see you stepping back from the edge and I certainly encourage it.

And note, AGAIN, that there's no explanation as to why out of 15 whole points how GT5 got only a single point higher over FM4 even though GT5 does day and dry and wet and dark and snow and dirt and more

Why would they explain when they were reviewing Forza 4 NOT Forza 4 vs GT5.
They looked at the physics on offer in Forza 4 and scored them lower than GT5.

GT5 still feels very real to me, but FM4 simply feels even more realistic in driving, racing, modding, tuning, messups and crashes, and more. Doesn't mean FM4 does it all perfect or right, nor does GT5 that as well. They both compliment each other very well and both still have their pros and cons with each other. I however don't put FM nor GT, and neither T10 nor PD on a pedestal and I say this with FM and GT being my favorite gaming franchises of all time with utmost respect for both PD and T10, even when BOTH act all arrogantly.

But then you cant feel lift off oversteer in the majority of cars in GT5 so like it or not your personal opinion of the physics in either game is very much subject to question.

[Badger3920]

Amazonitus in full fucken swing y'all!
'because Gran Turismo...'

Troll mode in full swing too?

[DaveS1138]

There is sticky and there is stupid sticky. GT5 offers both.

For some reason I couldn't respond to your previous post about the Viper ACR.
Just as an FYI it was the '09 model where they made a bunch of performace upgrades (according to the Wikipedia page).

A new ACR was added to the Viper line-up after the 2008 model year. Its upgrades were more drastic than the original, including street-legal racing tires, two-piece brake rotors, adjustable suspension, and significant aerodynamic revision. No engine modifications were made, so power and torque remain at 600 hp (450 kW) and 560 lb·ft (760 N·m) as in the standard SRT-10. The ACR is street-legal, and is similar to the MOPAR Viper that Dodge displayed at various auto shows. Weight was also decreased by 40 lb (18 kg) by using the "Hardcore Package", without AC, radio, speakers, amplifier, trunk carpet, hood pad or tire-inflator. Its aerodynamic upgrades produce about 1200 lbf (4.4 kN) of down-force at 150 mph (240 km/h), or roughly 10 times the downforce the standard Viper SRT-10 can produce at the same speed.

Obviously lap times are not a definitive (tm) answer on how close a car is to its real world counterpart since you need to look at where on a track a car is loosing or gaining time compared to its real world counterpart.....but I would argue that it being so close to a real world time does show that the stock tyres in GT5 are not garbage as you had claimed.

[RedRedSuit]

Troll mode in full swing too?

cuco hasn't been able to troll anyone but himself in years.

[cuco33]

No.

It is however the players fault if they buy super sticky tyres for their car....install them.....race on them......and then complain that the car is super sticky.

I don't see it as being the player's fault entirely if the player slaps Racing Softs. It's a tire option and nothing in the game says that they will be super sticky or some type of assist. I would say it's the player's fault if he selected driving assists especially SRF and then say it doesn't drive as realistic and feels a bit arcadey.

What I really like is how GT5 has a broad range of tire selections (maybe a bit too many though) that go from crap grip to completely over grip so finding a sweet spot or one that feels more realistic is there over 9 tire compounds. PD just adjusts the grip variable dependent on the tire compound that is on the car and what sucks is that the PP rating doesn't factor the tire compound at all (which I think is dumb to be honest).
I would love a mixture of what GT5 and FM4 do for both games, offer a bigger range of tires that directly affect the car's performance rating (PI/PP) but start them off with default tire compound and not go backwards. In FM4, not all cars have all the tire compounds as an option, especially race cars, where you might only have a race slick option over the stock sport tire and street cars have their OEM tire grip, street, sport and race slick as options (as well as drag slick but that's specifically for drag racing like GT5's dirt and snow tires). What I also like in FM4 is that the racing slick tire gives you the most grip compound but does not make it superman grip like GT5's RS tires. And then in FM4 you can get more grip by increasing tire contact patch by widening the wheels, something that isn't an option in GT5 at all.