Forza vs GT

[cuco33]

Since I missed this before and Dave mentioned it, I'll reply to this now

I'm happy to continue an honest debate on Forza vs GT but it needs to be just that. An honest debate. Recently you have taken to just making stuff up and declaring it fact in order to defend your position. Indy did an excellent post showing many of the issues that you chose to simply ignore.

For example....your still overblowing the frame drop/screen tearing issues in GT5 to make them apear far worse than they are....worst still you claimed to have had to lower the resolution you play GT5 at because you couldn't put up with it at 1080p and had to lower it to 720p to make it playable....

......except as you have been shown because of the way GT5 processes the image differently in 1080p vs 720p there is no noticable difference between them.

This isn't a question of it being worse on "premium" tracks with "Premium" cars (which isn't my experience at all...if anything I would say it is the city tracks that are worse because of the large amount of track side detail and the fact that this detail takes up a large proportion of the screen making the effects more vissible than traditional tracks with just the sky/clouds and some trees taking up the top half of the screen.) or weather effects......you're just throwing those in there as a defence against Turn 10 adding those features for their sacred 60fps........even with those factors 1080p is still not noticably better than 720p.

But then on top of that you keep saying that you dont even use those features much anyway.......you dont race in the rain or at night....

So my question is why did you have to turn the resolution down at all?

Since you dont race in a way which makes the effect noticable at all......and since there is no noticable difference anyway between 1080p and 720p because of the different processing.......then why did you turn your resolution down.......something that I with well over a year of near constant play in every condition avaialable in the game have never had to do?


then there is the subject of the physics.......you have gone away from your very resonable stance that both games are very similar in terms of physics and a personal preference for one set of quirks over another can make people choose either title (an opinion I agreed with)....to simply stating that Forza 4 is better and that is all there is to it.

And your reasoning for this.......the low speed physics in Forza 4 are better than GT5 because when you launch a Shelby Cobra off the line at full throttle in Forza 4 it spins out and in GT5 it does not (unless I tune it to be more stable and even then it is not as pronounced an effect as Forza).

The problem with that is that you are treating that as the sole criteria to judge the game on......another example of moving the goalposts specifically to favor Forza.

Yes the low speed physics in that specific example are better in Forza......but that is the only conclussion you can draw from that......and it's not one that has much of an effect on GT5 anyway since the vast majority of races in GT5 are from a rolling start not a standing start.

It does not for example make up for the "Forza feel" than reviewers have commented on in Forza.....nor does it make up for the fact that GT5's physics are doing a hell of a lot more than the physics in Forza since they have to govern everything from a racing kart to a formula 1 car in rain, snow, gravel and dirt.

You really did bet the farm on the ISR review when you asked if they would be discreditted by the GT Fanboys when they pronounced Forza the winner......when the truth was that they gave the victory to GT5 and it was you infact that was left discreditting them even though it was you that had introduced them as experts in the first place when they said Forza was better physics than GT5:P.

Now you have switched to a poster on GTPlanet as your chosen authority on physics since he is willing to say Forza is better......although just a couple of days ago he was claiming that there is no lift off oversteer in GT5 which is obviously wrong so I'm not sure what to make of his opinions anyway....However your problem with going with a random poster on another site is that there are plenty of people on either side of that debate in that thread....pick any five of them and you will get a different answer (again.....kind of shows that the two models are very close and individual preference can make you pick one or the other.....you should have stuck with that opinion....it was a far more reasonable stance.)

There is also the issue I noted that you are using pretty much the best wheel you can use for Forza whilst it is being used as a G25 clone in GT5 with who knows what incompatability issues with the driver.....of course to you personally it is going to feel better in Forza. Just as if I used my T500RS in GT5 and the Microsoft Wireless wheel in Forza then I would obviously say GT5 feels much better.....Your not noticing differences in the physics engines and FFB of the game but rather differences between the wheels you are using.
The CSR Elite is simply a better wheel than the G25.

I'm not making shit up. It's all facts.
Frame dips and screen tearing has happened in GT5. More often when taxing the system then not. It's a fact that 16fps was observed in extreme cases of driving premium cars in cockpit, 1080p output rez, in rain on premium tracks, full 16 car grid in 3D. This spike in slow frame frame and screen tearing was observed by tech analysis guys who specifically look for this stuff. Tax the system less and you'll have less likelihood of this happening as much. PD even went out of their way and removed track side models on some premium tracks when the grid is maxed out at 16 cars. 2D pixelation has occured in the rain and through smoke when driving, and I feel it's been improved since launch but it's still there. All of this is fact, not made up lies or BS.

I didn't say I lowered it to 720p to be playable. I never said it wasn't playable in 1080p output with the performance hits. If you noticed my stance on frame dips and game performance, I CAN'T STAND frame stutters and shit like that. It's not just in racers, but ANY game genre. I even complained about it with BF3 on the times it lagged up in career (which reminds me, I haven't finished the campaign yet). I've even mentioned many times that on PC games I'd dumb down the output and quality of the game to get better performance that's stable. A few hiccups annoy the shit out of me. A lot annoys me even more. So I decided to drop output rez to 720p and noticed an improvement in performance. It could be that improved performance also came with certain patches as well but I'm not a spec whore. It looks good to me and plays good so I'm not changing things around.

What I've also said, outside of performance hits, about the extra features GT5 has is that they can be limited. There's more options of rain on tracks and less dynamic time shift on tracks, as examples. But that's all been said before. As I said time and time again, all nice features to have and some I'd want Forza to have but it's not my cup of tea and they have issues by including them. From frame dips to screen tears to 2D pixelation to different features depending on if in a premium or a standard. I even took a dig at T10's 'different time of day' for multi heat races cuz quite simply... it feels tossed in there to attempt at countering dynamic time shift but is a sad attempt as it's only a locked in different time of day. Nice to have, not the same.
And patch v2.03 should be proof enough that in dry and day light conditions on some premium tracks in a full grid did in fact affect performance. PD removed track side models under these conditions to improve performance. How much more proof do you need than what v2.03 brought????


Both games do have great physics. I'll say that again and again and again. I still play both and if one was a horrible arcadey piece of crap, I'd say so and not play it anymore. Which one has the better physics model is a different story. Neither are perfect or as real as some PC sims and mods I've tried but Forza does it better. It takes into account more things. It feels more real to me and this is from playing both with pad and with wheel. Seriously though, my Fanatec wheel changed my stance slightly as I was looking at both being closer with a pad and once I ran both games with wheel the small differences found with a pad were a lot more noticeable. I didn't go on doing the GTfan preaching of 'game X is better... because'. I gave quite a few reasons and examples of why FM4 > GT5 physics. And like I said quite a lot was that everyone has problems when I say FM4 > GT5 physics even when I give tried and true examples and reasons (and the low speed physics isn't the only thing I mentioned, I must have mentioned like a 1/2 dozen things by now!!! so no dave, it's not the sole criteria..) yet NO ONE says anything when someone says GT5 > FM4 physics. Why??


I did a physics/time trial experiment with the same car and same track in both games. I posted my findings from an SRT8 Challenger (FR) on Laguna Seca, both in default tires and the stickiest racing tires you had access to, no assists on except ABS to 1 in GT5. My next run I'm planning is a Honda Civic (FF) on Tsukuba and then maybe an R34 Skyline GT-R (F-AWD) on Suzuka. All same cars, all same tracks, my best of only 10 runs (and a run I count as not spinning out, crashing, etc.) So far I've already noted differences in the Laguna Seca track model and the Challenger car model and the physics itself for FR cars in the 1st test setup. Dave, feel free to get your best time in a Challenger SRT8 on LS if you like so I can compare my times with yours. I know I can be faster in both games but what still showed was that GT5 was easier to tame and drive and I put down faster times on SH default tires in GT5 than the stickiest racing slicks in FM4.

Your comment about GT5 doing more in physics because of track conditions, which is just a grip modifier, and car layout/spec is just a plugging data values into the game code, is moot. You still have the same launch characteristics in a Ferrari F10 F1 racer as you do a Shelby Cobra. You still have the same lateral grip regardless of the car you're in if on the same tire compound. You still have the same tire temp across the entire tire, even if driving on extreme camber which would heat up the outside/inside of the tire more and wear a lot faster. List goes on..

I didn't bet any farm on ISR review. I also never said they were experts to begin with so AGAIN don't force feed me this crud. I mean even ISR themselves don't look at themselves as pros or experts, but simply fans, and I've mentioned this already. You guys are spinning it as if I did. If you noticed what I've said all along, I've been saying they, amongst all reviewers really, aren't the end all be all and ISR is a few fans of the genre, nothing more. In their review, they said some outlandish made up BS as I pointed out, and contradicted their own scoring and stances from just the previous review about the games in question, which I also pointed out!!
Not sure if you noticed but even in ISR's review, FM4 > GT5. And note, I'm saying that under the premise that ISR's own review is flawed, contradicting, and in my book biased to equate these games to avoid fanboy backlash and keep the devs happy.

I brought Scaff in here because I figured you yourself (and anyone who's posted on gtp) noticed he's very neutral and knows a shit ton about these games (he's done multiple game reviews for GTs of the past) and has worked in the automotive industry (Renault/Nissan) and even used GT games in the past to teach folks about vehicle dynamics. Is he the end all be all authority? No, but he certainly is a shit ton more valid than anyone who posts here, especially of those who play only 1 franchise
He's not the only one btw, but I enjoy reading Scaff's posts. He's actually been labeled a Forza fanboy and heavily biased for the MS platform simply for noting issues in GT games or where Forza does it better. Kind reminiscent of what goes on here

The CSR-Elite is the best wheel for Forza. My wheel is a CSR and is "2nd best". And what's wrong if it defaults to a G25/G27 clone? Isn't the Logitech G series wheels the tried and true awesome ass wheels that folks wished worked on MS platform? I've used my Fanatec CSR wheel and Logitech DFGT quite a bit in GT5. CSR is by far the better of the wheels I've personally used in my home. I've used a G25 in the past but was some time ago and would need to retry it to refresh my memory and feel for it. Doesn't make my CSR worse cuz it's defaulted to a G25/G27 driver... I mean wasn't the claim that PS3 is open wheel system so any wheel can be used.. but now we have to fault this because it defaults to a Logi G series driver and the potential for compatibility issues???? I mean... what??

[cuco33]

Funny, you were around the thread at the time I posted:

Forza vs GT

So, it's not like you couldn't post, so the whole "I WAS BUSY" argument is pointless. Like Badger pointed out, it took you three days to post a reply to this, man you must've really held onto thhat grudge. In those three days virtually everyone moved on, except you.

Dude, you sure you aren't CF??? I mean really?!? lol
Friday, I was at work till about 530-6pm. You linked a post I made BEFORE 5pm. Again, you are trying to make shit more than it is which is hilarious. Who's the desperate fanboy with grandiose attempts here??

Which you tried to use as an argument favoring Forza. It wasn't "Oh GT5 had more patches in the same amount of time!" it was "Forza 4 hasn't had the level of patches GT5 has!"

Except that it is. You tried to pass off the entire history of GT5's patches as a negative aspect of the game compared to Forza 4, a game that's been out 4 months.

By my count, the MANY patches amount to a total of 6 in its first 4 months. Forza 4 has had 4-5 patches, 2 of which FMS.NET considers "title updates" from the looks of it. Oh wow, 2 more patches in 4 months? GT5 had SOOOO MANY PATCHES you guys. SOOOO MANY. Really, you don't spin bullshit made of gold to defend Forza, nope. You're just telling the "troof".

I owned GT5 at launch and I played F4 in December, barely 2 months after it came out. I don't think GT5 needed anything "well over the FM series" (lol the WHOLE series. there goes that bias and hypocrisy again), what I got at launch I enjoyed thoroughly, much like what I got when I first played F4; I had plenty of complaints about GT5 when it came out, a lot of them haven't been addressed still, but that didn't ruin the game for me. I also had complaints about F4, and oddly they weren't anywhere near the level of complaints I levied at GT5... But somehow, I'm a fanboy with blinders on.

Your OPINION is not fact. You just fucking used an OPINION as a fact. Are you kidding me?

So since Forza 4 had 4-5 patches in its first 60 days and GT5 had 4, are you ready to classify Forza 4 as a mess? C'mon don't flip-flop on your argument, first you use GT5's update history as a dig against it and a plus for Forza, then when it's brought up you change your story to how much the patches had to "fix". What's next?

Factual != opinion. You just tried to argue your OWN OPINION as a fact, that is ten shades of fucking retarded.

Maybe the koolaid is getting to your head or it's really REALLY good and I need to try some... If you legitimately played both FM4 and GT5 since launch you'd see how my statement about the patches is truthful to the Nth freakin degree brah!! It's not even about GT5 being out longer and thus has more time to have more patches. It's about GT5 being launched with faults and issues throughout REQUIRING many of these patches to fix what should never have been broken. Forza 4 launched with a bug which was fixed. GT5 launched with bugs and game breaking/halting issues throughout. A patch was required to resolve the game save bug had you gone through the museum cards. A patch was required to resolve the standard car shuffle that introduced the OCD, which some cars like the FGT, required for A/Bspec races, were in constant shuffle in the UCD. A patch was required to resolve and tweak the grinding xp/cr issue by various means, from introducing the seasonal events to adjusting xp/cr payouts to dumbing down some times to make it easier to get silvers and bronzes (and in some cases golds). List goes on. But you knew this all already. If Forza 4 wasn't patched at all, we'd have 2 issues in total, a 900deg-270deg wheel issue and a counter assist bug which shouldn't be there in sim steering. In GT5, without patches, it would be as much of a mess as it was at launch. GT5 is a different game today as it was at launch, and I mean that in a big and positive way.

Fast forward to more recent and we got extra stuff, from blacked out cockpits for standards to wheel upgrades for standards to improved performance on certain premium tracks to official G series Logitech driver support to mid race series game save to enduro pit stop game save to the list goes on... These aren't the biggest issues the game had btw but a lot of what I mentioned already above were.

[cuco33]

I have never understood this way that you isolate A-Spec as being "career" mode? Why does it have to be in A-Spec to be part of your "career".....what even is your "career" in GT5?

Special events (for example) require you to reach a certain A-Spec level before you can compete in them just as you do in A-Spec......they reward you with credits and XP just as they do in A-Spec.......why is A-Spec your "career" and special events or licence tests are not?

Just never understood that one.

It's far more accurate to say that Rally is available in Arcade mode, Special events, Licence tests, practice modes and online......the only mode it is not available in is A-Spec......but I guess that wouldn't allow you to make it a negative against GT5 huh?

Also I did respond to your "cant we get back on topic" post....not sure if you just missed it. (I didn't even multiquote )

Career is your game progress. You can say special events and license is part of that and that's fine. It still shows that many of these features and licenses could have been handled A LOT better than what PD did. And i do mean A LOT better. Perfect example is Top Gear. You see 3 events in special events and never see the track again, ever, in the game. Of course, anyone can go into arcade/practice/time trial/online but that's career related stuff, even if online does give you xp/cr. I mean even the game manual starts off mentioning your career as A/Bspecs and then goes into license and special events. The fact remains that GT4 had a more robust 'career' than GT5 did, a game launched 6 years later unfinished

I don't count Forza's time trial/arcade/AV/online MP/rivals as part of the career either even though it gives you xp/cr in online MP and Rivals. So I'm not holding up a double standard here which I'm sure you and others want to shout on about.

This comes to mind with your, Indy's, Badgers, and other posts

[cuco33]

Opinions typically aren't facts.
Especially when prefaced with "I've been saying..."


We're almost making progress here.

Show me what's opinion and what's fact.... I'd love to see what you are referring to

[cuco33]

Yeah Top Gear never have silly races with odd vehicles do they???





Do you have a video of Top Gear bowling from the show by any chance.......cause anybody who has seen TG...........

You and I are both TG fans. Silly races are done on the norm on that show. But let's not spin and deflect and act like extreme fanboys bro. I'm sure you yourself don't like, as a TG fan, what PD did. No standing starts. No reasonably priced car. No 1/4mile or full mile runs. No TG crazy stuff like TG soccer. I've already pointed out my major dislike for TG bowling. But seriously... let's not spin this hmmmmkay

TG in GT5 is the most tacked on half assed licensed track. 3 racing events only, 2 of which are with cars massively questionable why they are there in the first place and the other being a car that doesn't come on ice grip tires from the factory. No standing starts. No straights. No reasonably priced car. No wonky TG shit either.

"and you know this.... maaaaaaaaaaaaaan!"

[cuco33]

Let me preface this with reminding you that you're frequently angry with the people in here, and then you hold yourself out as the perfect poster - on topic, and fair to both games. You support this by asserting that you often say positive things about GT5. Then you're upset because you feel like no one notices or gives you credit for doing so. Here's why:




You do - in almost every post you make, you're arguing why GT5's superiorities can be written off or don't matter. Look here:





This is your M.O. in here. As soon as you acknowledge a GT pro over forza, you cant scramble fast enough to figure out how to marginalize it or dismiss it.

You cant tell someone "Hey your wife is pretty good looking, you really lucked out - except for she sort looks like the south end of a north bound garbage truck"

Almost anytime you give any sort of acknowledgement to GT5, it's an underhanded comment and qualified with some reason why it doesn't matter that much. People see right through that, and so your attempts to come off as fair and neutral end up failing

Even more assumptions...

It's cool... I never mention anything proGT and antiFM. Nope. Never.. like never ever...

Maybe you missed the 20 or so personal cons and gripes I have with FM4? Or the tons of positive things I've said about GT5?

Must have all skipped right over your head...

[Badger3920]

Wow.

All of the dismissals, gifs, and smiley acrobatics across your last few posts are ironic given your recent tantrum about you being the level-headed saintly poster in here. Seems that the point has been made.

[Indy_aka_Rex]

Wow.

All of the dismissals, gifs, and smiley acrobatics across your last few posts are ironic given your recent tantrum about you being the level-headed saintly poster in here. Seems that the point has been made.

You gotta love how he goes about questioning if I'm coldfoot because I went 2 pages back in this thread to point out how he was around at the time I made my post. Ah well, at least I didn't hold a grudge for 3 days.

[evolone]

You gotta love how he goes about questioning if I'm coldfoot because I went 2 pages back in this thread to point out how he was around at the time I made my post. Ah well, at least I didn't hold a grudge for 3 days.

Gotta love how you are probably the only one who actually thinks he was being serious when he said that.

What is with GT diehards and a lack of detecting sarcasm in something thats blatently sarcastic.

[Indy_aka_Rex]

Gotta love how you are probably the only one who actually thinks he was being serious when he said that.

What is with GT diehards and a lack of detecting sarcasm in something thats blatently sarcastic.

There's so much irony in this post.

[DaveS1138]

You and I are both TG fans. Silly races are done on the norm on that show. But let's not spin and deflect and act like extreme fanboys bro. I'm sure you yourself don't like, as a TG fan, what PD did. No standing starts. No reasonably priced car. No 1/4mile or full mile runs. No TG crazy stuff like TG soccer. I've already pointed out my major dislike for TG bowling. But seriously... let's not spin this hmmmmkay

TG in GT5 is the most tacked on half assed licensed track. 3 racing events only, 2 of which are with cars massively questionable why they are there in the first place and the other being a car that doesn't come on ice grip tires from the factory. No standing starts. No straights. No reasonably priced car. No wonky TG shit either.

"and you know this.... maaaaaaaaaaaaaan!"

I'm not going to defend what PD did with the Top Gear licence......there are only 2 things you need for a top gear licence.....a standing start and the resonably priced car.....and they dont have either of them. That is beyond stupid and I habve said myself many times it's as if nobody at PD every even watched the show.

However.....

What you criticised PD for was the way they did use the licence.....specifically that they have stupid races that you would never find on the show.....and sorry but as I just showed those races are exactly the type of things you get on the show all the time.

What as far as I remember has never been on the show is driving around the track trying to knock over bowling pins.....

As has happened so many times before you level a criticism at GT only to have it pointed out to you that it is infact Forza that is guilty of the thing you criticised GT for......

Which you then try to deflect......

Yes the races in GT5 are perfectly in keeping with the show......No Top Gear Bowling is the thing they have never done.....

As to your other point about the Top Gear track never coming up again....
As with Rally.....it's available online, in practice, in Arcade, in the special events and in the licence tests.....the ONLY place you dont find it is in A-Spec.....and since A-Spec only has racing.....and since the Top Gear test track is a figure eight and so useless for racing....Then how do you expect them to use it in A-Spec exactly?

[evolone]

since A-Spec only has racing.....and since the Top Gear test track is a figure eight and so useless for racing....Then how do you expect them to use it in A-Spec exactly?

Verrrrrry carefully.

[DaveS1138]

Career is your game progress. You can say special events and license is part of that and that's fine. It still shows that many of these features and licenses could have been handled A LOT better than what PD did. And i do mean A LOT better. Perfect example is Top Gear. You see 3 events in special events and never see the track again, ever, in the game. Of course, anyone can go into arcade/practice/time trial/online but that's career related stuff, even if online does give you xp/cr. I mean even the game manual starts off mentioning your career as A/Bspecs and then goes into license and special events. The fact remains that GT4 had a more robust 'career' than GT5 did, a game launched 6 years later unfinished

I don't count Forza's time trial/arcade/AV/online MP/rivals as part of the career either even though it gives you xp/cr in online MP and Rivals. So I'm not holding up a double standard here which I'm sure you and others want to shout on about.

This comes to mind with your, Indy's, Badgers, and other posts

Hmmmm.........You criticise me for something that I haven't done simply on your assumption that I am going to do it......classy

As you say Career is your game progress......in the case of GT5 that would include A-Spec, B-Spec, Special events, seasonal events and Licence tests.....the only thing not counted towards your game progress would be practice mode and Arcade....

So it is not correct for you to keep saying that things like Nascar, Rally and Top Gear are not part of your "career."

(Nascar btw is in A-Spec also)

[DaveS1138]

Verrrrrry carefully.

.

[Badger3920]

Verrrrrry carefully.

I lol'd