Forza vs GT

[evolone]

Really? So the stock cars in FORZA carry official NASCAR licensing, official NASCAR sponsors markings, are they a specific driver's car? No? Then they're not NASCAR cars. They are STOCK CARS. Does APF 2K8 have NFL teams? No. Does it have non-descript characters meant to resemble NFL players? Yes. Is it an NFL game? No. Try again.

Ummm apf 2k does have nfl players in it. But you probably never played it to know that.

And the sponsorship, and the fact that Forza doesn't have an official NASCAR license, it just has the car bodies. So it doesn't have NASCAR then, as per your oft-used arguments against GT5.

They are old nascar bodies.

No, they're not. They are STOCK CARS. They aren't NASCAR cars, which driver uses the cars in F4 during NASCAR races? What sponsors do these cars have? Oh right, they're just the car bodies that you can use in the game, those require paying no licensing to NASCAR, no official sanctioning from NASCAR whatsoever.

They are old nascar bodies.


NASCAR spec-bodies and NASCAR sanctioned are two different things, what FORZA 4 has is NASCAR spec-cars, but they aren't actual NASCAR cars. Nobody uses them in NASCAR races. They're not licensed, spnsored or driven by anyone in NASCAR, they might as well be labeled "NVSCVR".

To be more specific they are old nascar spec bodies.

And Driver names, and sponsor approval, and NASCAR approval and NASCAR licennsing, and... I could go on, but let's j ust point out the obvious: T10 did not pay to have NASCAR in their game, they paid to model non-descript car bodies that resemble NASCAR cars so that you could decorate them. They used a legal-loophole not to pay for OFFICIAL NASCAR SUPPORT.

They didnt pay to have nascar in their name, but they do have nascar stockcars in bare form...along with more tracks that NASCAR races at than gt5.

No, they run on tracks NASCAR uses which are independently owned and T10 got the rights to. None of that has anything to do with NASCAR itself though, unless Forza paid NASCAR to use tracks they own (which I don't think they actually do).

Unless you want to race your generic stock car on more nascar sanctioned tracks...so if its a plus for t10 it doesnt count for anything. Gotcha.

No, what's laughable is your absurd defense and hypocrisy. "Oh GT5 doesn't have F1 because it doesn't REALLY have F1! WHAT!? Forza 4 DOES TOO HAVE NASCAR! It doesn't have the license or the actual cars, but it has the stock cars that were MEANT to be NASCAR cars and it has tracks NASCAR races on! IT DOES HAVE NASCAR!"

I NEVER SAID GT DIDNT HAVE F1.It may be half assed, but its there...more like a check in the box than an actual attempt to do it right. Some is better than none though. Im just wondering why YOU keep repeating that I said it doesnt have f1 or rally?

You want me to go back and point to the exact quote where you said it didn't? Because from what most people have seen, I'm more than capable of doing it to point out the hypocrisy of your argument.

Yes.

Guys, I'm not creating sentences, I'm using predetermined letters to make words. They're not original, this isn't an original sentence, I just knew these words and letters therefore I am not making original thoughts and creations... They were predetermined.

Really? Is there a limit to how many sentences you can make? Because Im pretty sure there is a limit to the tracks you can make in gt5. Hell, its such a garbage attempt that sometimes when I get halfway through making a track Im happy with, I adjust one slider for one section and it CHANGES THE WHOLE FUCKING TRACK TO SOMETHING DIFFERENT! Its trash. Sorry it hurts your feeling.

How silly can you get, evo?

How blind can you get?

[cuco33]

This is what the whole NASCAR thing is like:

Race team goes to Porsche and buys a 911 GT3 RSR for motorsports, like this one:

and yes you can buy them directly from Porsche dealers like this. $200k+ though for the low end version.

Race team and driver then adds their livery and makes any allowable changes as allowed by the governing race body that the race team is trying to qualify under, here being the example of what a 'licensed NASCAR' would be like in the Porsche 911 GT3 RSR realm, this case the famous Flying Lizard 911 GT3 RSR:


GT5 is the Flying Lizard whereas FM4 is the 'blank' 911 GT3 RSR you get at the dealership.

GT5 has many officially licensed NASCAR stock cars for the past 2 seasons, 2010 and 2011, albeit missing Dodge entirely. GT5 has 2 official NASCAR licensed tracks, Indy and Dayton. GT5 also has Jeff Gordon and a NASCAR specific 'license type' of special event. GT5 also has 1 race series in both A/B spec career modes. There are no official NASCAR rulings like black flags or seasoned points structure. There is also no damage in these events.

FM4 has no official NASCAR licensing. FM4 has 3 stock cars you can slap whatever livery you want on it, and it too is missing 1 of the players (Toyota). FM4 has 2 official NASCAR tracks, Infineon and Indy, as well as a bunch of fantasy oval layout tracks. No Jeff Gordon zombie in FM4. No NASCAR special events in FM4, but I do recall there being a rivals with stock cars already. There are stock car specific events in career in Forza. There are no official NASCAR rulings like black flags and season points structure. There is damage in Forza 4.

In my book, NASCAR is not a strong point of GT5, just as Top Gear is not a strong point of GT5. The other stuff we've heard all too many times IS, at least to a degree... Like:
- There's no karting whatsoever in Forza 4. In GT5 there is. On disk you have 1 kart, and a few special events. Nothing more. A disco kart track and 3 new karts came via DLC.
- There's no open wheelers of any kind, from Caterham 7 to Ferrari F10, in Forza 4. In GT5 there is. On disk you have 3 'F1' cars, 2 of which are real Ferrari F1 cars you can't use ANYWHERE outside of time trial/practice and online (1x there was a seasonal event, that is now gone). There is a fictional FGT with 1 racing series.
- There's no offroad racing of any kind in Forza 4. In GT5 there is. On disk you only see offroad in practice modes and special events there's an event series. No offroad in career.
- There's no rain effects of any kind in Forza 4. In GT5 there is. On disk you only see rain effects in some special events and late in your career during endurance races, where weather change is available in the game of course.

[Badger3920]

In my book, NASCAR is not a strong point of GT5, just as Top Gear is not a strong point of GT5. The other stuff we've heard all too many times IS, at least to a degree... Like:
- There's no karting whatsoever in Forza 4. In GT5 there is. On disk you have 1 kart, and a few special events. Nothing more. A disco kart track and 3 new karts came via DLC.
- There's no open wheelers of any kind, from Caterham 7 to Ferrari F10, in Forza 4. In GT5 there is. On disk you have 3 'F1' cars, 2 of which are real Ferrari F1 cars you can't use ANYWHERE outside of time trial/practice and online (1x there was a seasonal event, that is now gone). There is a fictional FGT with 1 racing series.
- There's no offroad racing of any kind in Forza 4. In GT5 there is. On disk you only see offroad in practice modes and special events there's an event series. No offroad in career.
- There's no rain effects of any kind in Forza 4. In GT5 there is. On disk you only see rain effects in some special events and late in your career during endurance races, where weather change is available in the game of course.

I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but you basically just went through an exercise of bringing up some decent advantages GT5 has over Forza, and then spun them in a negative light.

It's sort of the story of this entire thread, and why I think you find discussion here difficult. You'll look at Forza, compare it to GT, note the differences, and then minimize or explain away why those differences aren't an advantage or important.

[evolone]

More like pd tried to one up f3 by adding as many things as they could without finishing them...like 800 of the cars.

Also cuco forgot Road America as a Nascar track.

[Badger3920]

More like pd tried to one up f3 by adding as many things as they could without finishing them...like 800 of the cars.

A rather self-serving, conspiracy theorist way of explaining it. At least your dismissal is wholesale and easy to ignore. His is like he actually went through the effort of making a checklist of all the big differences between GT5 and Forza, and then systematically came up with his own rationale on why each GT5 advantage doesn't matter.

I'm not sure what you call that, but I have a name for it and it isn't 'neutral'

[Indy_aka_Rex]

Pathetic levels of fanboy behaviour?? Really? Dude... I went away for the weekend for a friend's bachelor party. Was not thinking about posting on HDD when out with the boys in the Poconos getting heavily intoxicated and hitting the slopes for the first time. I love that you're actually trying to make me being away for a few days and not post here as something.
LULZ TO THE FREAKIN LULZ!!!

Funny, you were around the thread at the time I posted:

Forza vs GT

So, it's not like you couldn't post, so the whole "I WAS BUSY" argument is pointless. Like Badger pointed out, it took you three days to post a reply to this, man you must've really held onto thhat grudge. In those three days virtually everyone moved on, except you.

GT5 has been out a lot longer than FM4 so the likelihood for GT to get more patches than FM based on time alone is quite obvious.

Which you tried to use as an argument favoring Forza. It wasn't "Oh GT5 had more patches in the same amount of time!" it was "Forza 4 hasn't had the level of patches GT5 has!"

Thing is, it's not just oh GT got a X amount of patches in time Y, and FM got this many patches too in same time frame...

Except that it is. You tried to pass off the entire history of GT5's patches as a negative aspect of the game compared to Forza 4, a game that's been out 4 months.

The thing is there were MANY patches early on to resolve many of these major game issues, game save issues from the musuem cards, obvious grinding issues which are still there but nowhere near as bad as at launch, various standard car issues even some related to career halting issues, OCD & Seasonal additions (which are very welcome), etc etc.

By my count, the MANY patches amount to a total of 6 in its first 4 months. Forza 4 has had 4-5 patches, 2 of which FMS.NET considers "title updates" from the looks of it. Oh wow, 2 more patches in 4 months? GT5 had SOOOO MANY PATCHES you guys. SOOOO MANY. Really, you don't spin bullshit made of gold to defend Forza, nope. You're just telling the "troof".

If you played both titles from launch you'd damn know well that GT has seriously needed a lot of these patchings well over FM series.

I owned GT5 at launch and I played F4 in December, barely 2 months after it came out. I don't think GT5 needed anything "well over the FM series" (lol the WHOLE series. there goes that bias and hypocrisy again), what I got at launch I enjoyed thoroughly, much like what I got when I first played F4; I had plenty of complaints about GT5 when it came out, a lot of them haven't been addressed still, but that didn't ruin the game for me. I also had complaints about F4, and oddly they weren't anywhere near the level of complaints I levied at GT5... But somehow, I'm a fanboy with blinders on.

This isn't meant as a dig against GT, it's stating facts. And the fact was that at launch GT5 was a mess with issues throughout, of which many patches and updates have fixed a lot of these issues.

Your OPINION is not fact. You just fucking used an OPINION as a fact. Are you kidding me?

So since Forza 4 had 4-5 patches in its first 60 days and GT5 had 4, are you ready to classify Forza 4 as a mess? C'mon don't flip-flop on your argument, first you use GT5's update history as a dig against it and a plus for Forza, then when it's brought up you change your story to how much the patches had to "fix". What's next?

I make a factual statement and folks don't like it cuz it goes against GT and whammo... same ol' shit, different day. But I get it... defend defend defend.

Factual != opinion. You just tried to argue your OWN OPINION as a fact, that is ten shades of fucking retarded.

[Indy_aka_Rex]

Ummm apf 2k does have nfl players in it. But you probably never played it to know that.

I don't give a shit about the NFL to begin with, so hey at least you're right about something! Also, really? It has NFL players? Which NFL players? If I remember correctly APF2K8 was composed of RETIRED NFL players, and that still doesn't change the fact that most of these "NFL players" were just non-descript models without NFL player likenesses. Considering that part of the NFL license Madden has also includes NFL player likenesses? I doubt it had actual NFL players.

They are old nascar bodies.

They are STOCK CAR bodies. How many times do I have to repeat the same argument before you actually understand it? Show me WHERE in Forza 4 it proves that the stock cars in the game are NASCAR cars. Where in the game does it say FORZA 4 has a NASCAR license that allows them to have NASCAR cars in it? Nowhere. There are NO NASCAR CARS in Forza 4, there are CAR BODIES that NASCAR uses as a basis for their cars, but they are NOT NASCAR cars.

They are old nascar bodies.

It's like talking to a toddler at this point.

To be more specific they are old nascar spec bodies.

NASCAR SPEC != NASCAR. I can build a PC with the SAME EXACT specs of an Alienware PC, down to the chasis, would that make my computer an ALIENWARE computer? No, no it would not.

They didnt pay to have nascar in their name, but they do have nascar stockcars in bare form...along with more tracks that NASCAR races at than gt5.

They have STOCK CARS, yes, a fact that we've never denied. Do they have NASCAR cars? No. So, as it's been repeated several times over: Forza 4, does NOT have NASCAR.

Unless you want to race your generic stock car on more nascar sanctioned tracks...so if its a plus for t10 it doesnt count for anything. Gotcha.

Having more tracks is a plus in general for any game, nobody has denied this. Still doesn't change the fact that Forza 4 does not have NASCAR. What was your argument again? Oh right "Forza 4 has NASCAR" and it doesn't. You can definitely use the argument I completely made for you against GT5 though, more than welcome to it.

I NEVER SAID GT DIDNT HAVE F1.It may be half assed, but its there...more like a check in the box than an actual attempt to do it right. Some is better than none though. Im just wondering why YOU keep repeating that I said it doesnt have f1 or rally?

You're right, it was cuco who said it, not you. I guess since you're both so alike you've all turned into one person to me. Oh well, MY APOLOGIES. That said, you did say...

If you count F1 in GT5 you have to count nascar in F4.

Despite the fact that PD paid for the rights to have F1 cars in GT5, whereas T10 did not pay to have NASCAR in its game, but still, according to you... Forza 4 has NASCAR.

Really? Is there a limit to how many sentences you can make? Because Im pretty sure there is a limit to the tracks you can make in gt5.

I had no idea that originality was deemed by having no limitations, good lord someone should call Nintendo! The first Zelda wasn't original because the NES had nowhere near the power of today's consoles! SWEET JESUS!

Hell, its such a garbage attempt that sometimes when I get halfway through making a track Im happy with, I adjust one slider for one section and it CHANGES THE WHOLE FUCKING TRACK TO SOMETHING DIFFERENT! Its trash. Sorry it hurts your feeling.

That's a first, never had the game change THE WHOLE TRACK when I picked a different option. But yeah, it's garbage. Forza 4 doesn't have it, so it's garbage.

How blind can you get?

Pretty sure you tried to argue that something original can't be made with limitations, so I don't think I'm the "blind" one here.

[DaveS1138]

- There's no offroad racing of any kind in Forza 4. In GT5 there is. On disk you only see offroad in practice modes and special events there's an event series. No offroad in career.

I have never understood this way that you isolate A-Spec as being "career" mode? Why does it have to be in A-Spec to be part of your "career".....what even is your "career" in GT5?

Special events (for example) require you to reach a certain A-Spec level before you can compete in them just as you do in A-Spec......they reward you with credits and XP just as they do in A-Spec.......why is A-Spec your "career" and special events or licence tests are not?

Just never understood that one.

It's far more accurate to say that Rally is available in Arcade mode, Special events, Licence tests, practice modes and online......the only mode it is not available in is A-Spec......but I guess that wouldn't allow you to make it a negative against GT5 huh?

Also I did respond to your "cant we get back on topic" post....not sure if you just missed it. (I didn't even multiquote )

[Badger3920]

I have never understood this way that you isolate A-Spec as being "career" mode? Why does it have to be in A-Spec to be part of your "career".....what even is your "career" in GT5?

I didnt get want to get into it, but this was one of the main reasons I posted what I did earlier. This is just an example of looking for a way to minimize one of the things Gt5 does that Forza doesn't. GT5 does a LOT of different things (see any number of the dozens of list wars throughout this thread). Lots of things aren't heavily used in A Spec - but it doesn't discount them. There is an entire challenge series dedicated to off road. The whole Sebastian Loeb circuit was quiet a bit of fun.

Then, of course, there is a ton more to it; I've spent a decent amount of time racing my buddies on the Eiger Nordwand dirt track - which is nuts. I don't think there is a single race in the game that truly tests a racer's patience more than that. There are long stretches of time on that track where if you exceed 30mph, you're probably going to end up in last very quickly; but the further you fall behind, the more you want to push it.

Lots of very fun stuff going on there. If you're disappointed that it wasn't used in A-Spec, I suppose that's fine, but it's not like that's a knock on it or anything.

[cuco33]

I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but you basically just went through an exercise of bringing up some decent advantages GT5 has over Forza, and then spun them in a negative light.

It's sort of the story of this entire thread, and why I think you find discussion here difficult. You'll look at Forza, compare it to GT, note the differences, and then minimize or explain away why those differences aren't an advantage or important.

And what's the problem if I mention positive things for GT5? Is it really that much of a shocker if I do (as I have many times)?? I never said it sucks to have these things in GT5. I said they feel tacked on, half-assed, and could have been implemented much better into the game, cuz that's what they are.
Look at Top Gear, you have 3 events and you never see it again in the game. Of course you can replay these 3 events or go on a time trial/practice run if you like.
Look at having formula cars, the 2 real world Ferraris you have nothing to access them with and the FGT there's only 1 series in both A/Bspec. And the FGT wasn't easy to obtain as it's a standard, in standard UCD shuffle and has been in all the OCD post patch as an option to buy (where I got mine from anyways).

In the end these are racing games and all you really need is cars and tracks but when there are career modes and special events, you kind of expect, as an example, more than just 3 events on Top Gear with 2 of the cars in major question why they are in this event at all and the other being on tires that don't come as an option from the factory. All 3 events show clearly that TG was tacked on as anyone who's seen TG knows that no race has ever been done like this.

[cuco33]

More like pd tried to one up f3 by adding as many things as they could without finishing them...like 800 of the cars.

Also cuco forgot Road America as a Nascar track.

Good point, but I was looking only at the top Sprint cup series. Road America is a track event for Nationwide series. I don't follow NASCAR YEEHAW NASCAR but most of it is ovals. There's usually 2 'road' courses but the rest is ovals and with fantasy tracks there's a lot of oval layouts. With friends NASCAR style racing can be a lot of fun though, I just think the real race series is shit and crap compared to some proper motorsports like F1, ALMS/LMS/WEC, GT, DTM, BTCC, etc... I'd rather watch grandma wheel chair racing over NASCAR.

[cuco33]

A rather self-serving, conspiracy theorist way of explaining it. At least your dismissal is wholesale and easy to ignore. His is like he actually went through the effort of making a checklist of all the big differences between GT5 and Forza, and then systematically came up with his own rationale on why each GT5 advantage doesn't matter.

I'm not sure what you call that, but I have a name for it and it isn't 'neutral'

And who's said GT's advantages don't matter? I've been saying for quite a long time that both have pros and cons over each other. I've also been saying that a lot of GT's bonus features feel tacked on and half assed, cuz they are, and can impact performance, which they have.
Like "1000+ cars", yes, even on the game's cover art it tells you over 1000 detailed cars and all... but 800+ are standard ports yadda yadda yadda we've all heard it before. And when you tack on all these extras like rain, premium tracks, full 16 car grid, premium cars, 3D, etc it taxes the system to the point the game can peak at crawling to as observed 16fps. Even if not fully taxing the game, the more features you tack on the more likely some frame dips and screen tearing and pixelation will happen.

None of this is made up lies or deflecting shit or fanboy fodder. It's stating facts. Facts that the proSony folk apparently don't like to be mentioned. Not on here, not on gtplanet, not on gran-turismo's main site, not on sony's forums, etc.

[michealo]

Opinions typically aren't facts.
Especially when prefaced with "I've been saying..."


We're almost making progress here.

[DaveS1138]

In the end these are racing games and all you really need is cars and tracks but when there are career modes and special events, you kind of expect, as an example, more than just 3 events on Top Gear with 2 of the cars in major question why they are in this event at all and the other being on tires that don't come as an option from the factory. All 3 events show clearly that TG was tacked on as anyone who's seen TG knows that no race has ever been done like this.

Yeah Top Gear never have silly races with odd vehicles do they???





Do you have a video of Top Gear bowling from the show by any chance.......cause anybody who has seen TG...........

[Badger3920]

Let me preface this with reminding you that you're frequently angry with the people in here, and then you hold yourself out as the perfect poster - on topic, and fair to both games. You support this by asserting that you often say positive things about GT5. Then you're upset because you feel like no one notices or gives you credit for doing so. Here's why:

And who's said GT's advantages don't matter? I've been saying for quite a long time that both have pros and cons over each other.

You do - in almost every post you make, you're arguing why GT5's superiorities can be written off or don't matter. Look here:

And what's the problem if I mention positive things for GT5? I never said it sucks to have these things in GT5. I said they feel tacked on, half-assed, and could have been implemented much better into the game, cuz that's what they are.

This is your M.O. in here. As soon as you acknowledge a GT pro over forza, you cant scramble fast enough to figure out how to marginalize it or dismiss it.

You cant tell someone "Hey your wife is pretty good looking, you really lucked out - except for she sort looks like the south end of a north bound garbage truck"

Almost anytime you give any sort of acknowledgement to GT5, it's an underhanded comment and qualified with some reason why it doesn't matter that much. People see right through that, and so your attempts to come off as fair and neutral end up failing