Forza vs GT

[Vsions]

Originally Posted by cuco33

But racing sims in general are a niche genre

Sorry just had to chime in here that I totally disagree with this statement. the GT series are some of the highest selling titles there are. Not sure how you can say its niche when the factual numbers say otherwise. I mean even GT5P which everyone considers a glorified demo has sold more than alot of full games ever will, shit maybe even more than Forza 3 will. And even Forza sells far more tha niche level numbers. I think you are definitely wrong in that regard. I also agree with Red in that it doesnt matter how many different sims you play to make one an enthusiast. My brother in law only play the GT series and Im pretty sure he is more of an enthusiast than you are. He is constantly doing car events and races on tracks regularly. The dude has had his cars in magazines and whips around ferraries and all kinds of exotic shit on the track i real life.

[cuco33]

Originally Posted by RedRedSuit

No, I'm eliminating them because PC games sell like shit 99% of the time, therefore any discussion of PC sales is totally irrelevant. Additionally, I'm eliminating them because even without them the market is clearly large. The size of the market is not defined by the average sales over all games in the market. It's defined by the number of games sold. In the sim market, that number is large. Therefore, that market is large. Period. You're arguing against something as true as 2+2=4.



You're bullshitting. Gran Turismo and Forza are racing simulators. That is what they are. Their focus is on realism. I know from experience that Gran Turismo is way too anal to be appreciated by anyone who doesn't want realistic, simulated driving. The license tests in GT3 alone prove this. And yes, I know this from personal experience. Your attempts at argument from authority fail.

Nothing you can say can defeat the simple, mathematical fact that GT/Forza are racing simulators and that they sell in huge numbers, conclusively proving that your absurd statement, re. the sim market being small and niche, is entirely false.

I do have to admire your perserverance, though, even after saying about 3 times how you're "done" with this argument, how you've "quit," how you're going to "neglect" the "SDF spin brigade," etc. You soldier on after all that, and even all the Halo/FPS, GTA/sandbox, Star Wars/sci-fi, FIFA/soccer, etc. examples. Hell, you even soldier on after the "small f'n boat" GIF, which is just astounding.



Nonsense. If you've spent X hours on genre X, then you're clearly in the market for genre X. Whether those X hours were spent on 1, 5, or 100 different games is completely irrelevant.



Nonsense. These random definitions (as wrong as they are) of what makes a fan are irrelevant to the conversation at hand. If someone plays 500 hours of Halo a year, and no other FPS, he is still clearly in the market for FPS. So, thanks for another irrelevant tangent that only furthers your wrongness.

You can't force every discussion in the thread down the I'm-cuco-and-I'm-a-real-sim-fan path. It's just not relevant here. If someone spends many hours on a sim game, then clearly they're in the market for sim games. Period. That's it.

How do you eliminate a platform where the vast majority of racing sims exist? Where the best sims exist? Where the most realistic sims exist? Where sims existed long before a GT/Forza game even existed on store shelves? Sells like shit because they are not as popular hence being a niche, proving my very point. There are many racing sims on PC and all of them have, and continue, to sell to a small group of fans. GT/Forza, for it's differences, sell extremely well as they took on a different direction than what core sim racers go for. Their bulk of players tend to go for more power and win by more hp rather than pure skill with the same/similar car. You see it easily online.

See red, you will never get it especially since you aren't a sim fan and never experienced the sim world on PC, which is probably why for you sales is defining proof and PC sales is shit... I thought sales =/= a lot of things, I'd think when looking at a core sim experience you wouldn't be looking at just sales nor eliminating the vast majority of where racing sims exist. GT/Forza offer car customization via performance modifications which many like. It's easy to be in the same class of cars and upgrade a turbo and slap some race slicks and suspension and go from last to first. It's not easy keeping the car as is and digging into the tuning aspect of the games and beating out the competition in the hardest difficulty. Most will do the former, some will do the latter.

PS notice even PD labels their own games as driving simulators, not racing simulators

PPS ragequit nonsense mofo... ragequit!! I love how 1 person can define something as it is X and anything that might claim X is really Y gets thrown out as nonsense, bullshit, irrelevant and absurd especially when the other person has more experience and knowledge about the topic at hand. but again, must be PC elitism

[cuco33]

Originally Posted by Vsions

Sorry just had to chime in here that I totally disagree with this statement. the GT series are some of the highest selling titles there are. Not sure how you can say its niche when the factual numbers say otherwise. I mean even GT5P which everyone considers a glorified demo has sold more than alot of full games ever will, shit maybe even more than Forza 3 will. And even Forza sells far more tha niche level numbers. I think you are definitely wrong in that regard. I also agree with Red in that it doesnt matter how many different sims you play to make one an enthusiast. My brother in law only play the GT series and Im pretty sure he is more of an enthusiast than you are. He is constantly doing car events and races on tracks regularly. The dude has had his cars in magazines and whips around ferraries and all kinds of exotic shit on the track i real life.

Again, GT/Forza are a different class of game. They take major elements of a simulator experience with others that are driven from arcade fans appreciation towards customizing a car for more performance. We all love upgrades right? Perks in COD, special skills in FF, better player performance in sports franchise modes, super combos that do more damage when the meter is maxed out, etc... If a genre is and always has been large, you can eliminate any game franchise in that genre and the genre will still be large. That's not the case with sims when we throw GT/Forza in the mix. Eliminating just these 2 significantly drops sales/players/knowledge of said sim. This doesn't hold true in arcade racers. You knock down the most popular, or top 5 most popular and the genre is still large, which is my point.

Maybe I should have said from the get go like michaelo
"define racing simulator"
because I don't think many of you even know what options a player has with a core sim racer, which usually is on PC

[DaveS1138]

Great another time I have to correct Cuco

Originally Posted by cuco33

That argument spurred out from definitive dave preaching he's a big fan of racing sims but admitted never played on PC, where the bulk of the sim market is in.

Actually if you bother to go back over the original debate it didn't start with me claiming to be a racing sim fan.......whilst I feel that I am it is not something that I had claimed in the debate......it started with you claiming that I was not a "real" fan because I had only played the GT series......something that you continue to claim to this day even though I have pointed out to you numerous times how wrong that is.....and me saying that I was a "real" fan based on the number of hours I have dedicated to these games and the fact that if somebody couldn't afford to buy every console on the market or keep upgrading there PC to play the latest and greatest doesn't stop them from being a "real" fan.

Originally Posted by cuco33

He and others also went on the continued agenda because of my dissatisfaction in PD's direction the last few years ever since, and including, GT4 as I've played every GT game since the 1st iteration, and those who have experienced the full franchise feel the same as me.

You continue to claim that fans of the series all feel letdown by GT4........funny because (again.....as has been shown to you numerous times) GT4 sold just as many copies as the rest of the series.........

GT1 10.85 Million copies sold
GT2 9.37 Million copies sold
GT3 14.89 Million copies sold
GT4 10.76 Million copies sold

OK so lets not look at sales......lets look at Metacritics user score and see if that shows us how everybody feels that GT4 was a massive letdown.

GT1 8.6
GT2 8.8
GT3 8.6
GT4 8.3

Originally Posted by cuco33

He also claimed a few times the physics in GT are superior, all with 20min of play time of Forza 2

I have stated (again repeatedly) that I didn't use my 20 mins on Forza 2 to draw any conclussions about the game......it was far too short a time and I was using a controller instead of a wheel (not only that but a 360 controller which to somebody that grew up with the Playstaton controller felt like I was holding a brick)........so no......I have never said that GT has better physics than Forza 2 based on 20 mins of play.......I have repetedly claimed that it has better physics based on the number of people who have compared the two series and said that GT is the clear winner in terms of physics (this was before the release of Forza 3 obviously)

Originally Posted by cuco33

throwing in reasons why he wouldn't get a 360 due to additional cost as the sole reason, and not because for him GT and PS3 is good enough.

It is the sole reason that I dont have a 360 and Forza....... I dont have $500 to drop on a console like that when I already have a PS3 that does everything the 360 can do (and plays Blu-rays ontop of that) and will be buying GT5 which does everything that Forza 3 will do (and considerably more in terms of number of cars on track, number of cars in game, types of racing, etc etc etc (you have seen the list plenty of times).

The only thing you have been able to say that Forza 3 has over GT5 is a livery editor which I have said plenty of times is of absolutely no interest to me what so ever. and (maybe) better modding and tuning although that is yet to be seen.

so yet again..........why am I going to spend $500+ to get a console that does nothing that the console I already own does and a game that does less than GT5 when instead I can just wait 5 months and spend $60 on GT5?

(and yes...... I can shop around and get a 360 on sale for less, I'm still considering the $199 Arcade + $100 gift card sale at Walmart tomorrow).

Originally Posted by cuco33

It's easier to just come out and say 'I'm a GT and Sony fan and it's all I play and will ever play' rather than going on retorts and arguments over which games are better trying to come off as some major fan of the genre or someone with full knowledge and experience in it. And then the blu brigade chiming in not seeing the full picture and tagging along, especially with not being fans of racing sims at all.

Except that GT isn't the only game I have played..........but then why let little things like facts get in the way of your arguments huh.......it's not like you have ever done that before.

[DaveS1138]

Originally Posted by Vsions

Sorry just had to chime in here that I totally disagree with this statement. the GT series are some of the highest selling titles there are. Not sure how you can say its niche when the factual numbers say otherwise.

Apparently we have to throw out all the sales of GT and Forza

It's just like how the market for Cola is none existent.......you know.......once you throw out all the sales of Coke and Pepsi.

[Vsions]

Originally Posted by cuco33

Again, GT/Forza are a different class of game. They take major elements of a simulator experience with others that are driven from arcade fans appreciation towards customizing a car for more performance. We all love upgrades right? Perks in COD, special skills in FF, better player performance in sports franchise modes, super combos that do more damage when the meter is maxed out, etc... If a genre is and always has been large, you can eliminate any game franchise in that genre and the genre will still be large. That's not the case with sims when we throw GT/Forza in the mix. Eliminating just these 2 significantly drops sales/players/knowledge of said sim. This doesn't hold true in arcade racers. You knock down the most popular, or top 5 most popular and the genre is still large, which is my point.

Maybe I should have said from the get go like michaelo
"define racing simulator"
because I don't think many of you even know what options a player has with a core sim racer, which usually is on PC

Yeah that would help, becaus I was under the impression that you were covering GT and Forza as well. Either way now that you explain the whole PS vs console thing it makes more sense for sure and I can see where your coming from, but to be honest I think the popuarity from pc sims stems from the fact that alot of people dont really know much about computers nor do the want to constantly upgrade/maintain their machines to keep up with the spec some of these games require. Hence the move on to the more easily accesible console sims even if they arent as accurate. I would have to imagine that the reason alot of these competitions that I read about happen with GT because its much easier/cheaper to get a bunch of ps3's than it is to get gaming rigs. So I still belive that console sims are very relevant and simply cannot be dismissed.

[RedRedSuit]

Originally Posted by cuco33

How do you eliminate a platform where the vast majority of racing sims exist? Where the best sims exist? Where the most realistic sims exist? Where sims existed long before a GT/Forza game even existed on store shelves?

I already answered this. It doesn't matter if we eliminate PC sims from consideration or not -- the total sales in the market make it large with OR without them. Thus, irrelevant.

Sells like shit because they are not as popular hence being a niche, proving my very point.

That's retarded logic, as I've already shown. BioShock on PC and Crysis on PC, for example, have sold very little compared to console FPS. Yet, most people contend that the best FPS are on PC. That, however, doesn't negate the fact that the console FPS games are huge sellers, which means the market is very large. You can't use the small sales of games on a platform where nearly all games sell poorly -- due to expensive hardware -- to somehow show the genre is small. That's logic 101. It makes no sense.

Market size is not defined by the sales of the subjective "best" or "most hardcore" entries in that genre. It is defined by the sales of the games in that genre, period. The sales of games in the sim genre are large. Therefore, the market is large. Period.

There are many racing sims on PC and all of them have, and continue, to sell to a small group of fans. GT/Forza, for it's differences, sell extremely well as they took on a different direction than what core sim racers go for.

A bunch of bullshit. Whether GT/Forza are somewhat more noob-friendly or not is irrelevant. They are racing simulators. They sell well. Therefore, the market for racing simulators is large. Period. End of story.

See red, you will never get it especially since you aren't a sim fan and never experienced the sim world on PC, which is probably why for you sales is defining proof and PC sales is shit...

No, whether I'm a sim fan or not is irrelevant. My identity is irrelevant. The fact that PC games sell like shit as a rule -- due to the difficulties of the platform, such as price, not the games themselves -- completely defeat your entire argument.

...your entire argument, which you've promised you'd walk away from like 5 times by now...

I thought sales =/= a lot of things, I'd think when looking at a core sim experience you wouldn't be looking at just sales

What the fuck? When trying to judge the size of the market, sales are the only factor. The only factor. What are you rambling about?

PS notice even PD labels their own games as driving simulators, not racing simulators

PPS ragequit nonsense mofo... ragequit!!

What I love most about your "debating" style is that the harder you get your ass kicked, the less coherent your posts get.

I love how 1 person can define something as it is X and anything that might claim X is really Y gets thrown out as nonsense, bullshit, irrelevant and absurd especially when the other person has more experience and knowledge about the topic at hand. but again, must be PC elitism

How much experience you may or may not have is irrelevant. That's a logic fallacy known as "argument from authority." Here, learn about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

If your logic makes no sense, and it clearly doesn't (behold Badger's Titanic illustration for the reason why), then your argument is false. Yes, even if you're a 1,000-year-old, wise philosopher.

[Badger3920]

Christ, this is IDENTICAL to the first time you made a terrible argument in this thread, tried to walk away, couldn't - so you attempted to defend it, and when that didnt work, you tried to shift the scope so you weren't wrong.

Saying the racing sim genre is niche is WRONG. It's not even an opinion, it's demonstrable with facts and sales figures. You need to admit it.

Originally Posted by cuco33

If we knock out the huge bulk of PC sims because 'PC games sell like shit' then I don't see why we can't knock out GT/Forza

Doing EITHER is retarded, and the only person doing it is YOU. When sizing up a market, it's plain stupid to disregard an entire portion of it on purpose. All Red seems to be saying is that PC games sell like trash in general, so they're not the flesh and bones of racing sim sales. HOWEVER, you seem to be arguing otherwise, which is funny because it SIMPLY PROVES YOUR ORIGINAL ARGUMENT WRONG. If you argue that there is a sizeable racing sim market on PC, then your (wrong) forza/gt exclusion argument doesn't even get reached. Your argument is that the racing sim genre is small. It is not. GT and Forza prove that single-handedly. If you want to argue that it's silly to dismiss PC sales, then go for it -- it just further puts your argument underwater.

Originally Posted by cuco33

for pure simulation aspect as they cater to a wider and much different audience then the 'hardcore' sim fan. The bulk of racing sims are not on console. They started in PC [..snip..]

because I don't think many of you even know what options a player has with a core sim racer, which usually is on PC

Now, because you're obviously wrong and in a corner, you're trying to change the scope of what you said. Now it's not that racing sims are niche. To avoid your own argument, you're going to try and drag everyone into pages of debate that GT and Forza aren't simulators.

This is also a trash argument for many reasons. Furthermore, it doesn't matter WHERE racing sims started. That's another red herring on your part. The discussion is about the size of the market, not about where it exists or began. PC vs Console has nothing to do with this argument.

[cuco33]

Originally Posted by RedRedSuit

I already answered this. It doesn't matter if we eliminate PC sims from consideration or not -- the total sales in the market make it large with OR without them. Thus, irrelevant.

I'm just going to answer to this one, bout to step out to lunch and rest of afternoon I'm in the lab all day. Exclude GT/Forza from the racing sim market, for whatever reason including moving it to a new category altogether, will show you that no total sales in the racin sim market is not large.

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Here's my high def visual representation of the entire simulation market. This includes the sim games like GT and Forza that offer something completely different then core sim games, as well as them core racing sim games that are a niche in the racing world and have existed before a GT/Forza game was on store shelves. Category 1 is GT, while 2 is Forza, and everything else is every other racing sim across all platforms. Remember that category 1 and 2 also offer a completely different experiences and options while offering many things the rest of the market has in their games. If you look at total sales, the market says yes it is huge, grand, massive. Take away 1 & 2 (GT & Forza) as they are different then a core racing sim and it tells you a completely different story about the market. If you know anything about statistics, you'd also see that the distribution is heavily one sided stating the same that it's not uniform and not good for comparisons sake. If the sim world were grand, as we'd be defining GT/Forza as a core racing sim experience, even knocking out Category 1 and 2 would have all others to be relatively close to the total average of sales, like happens in arcade racers

It was fun to debate this fellas but I'm sure those who have experienced core racing sims in comparison to GT/Forza still won't get it and would rather debate the play with words we all can do. I doubt I'll be posting for the rest of the day until later at night unless I gather a few minutes on the BB (busy in the lab). I hope some of you see now what my point is about the racing sim market, from my excellent high def, full graphical representation of the market () and is what i've been saying that racing sims, i guess i should be saying core racing sims, is a niche market

[BBM128]

Originally Posted by cuco33

This is throwing out one of them what if moments, but if Forza 3 is determined across the entire board that it is significantly a better racing sim game than GT5, you still will find some excuse as to why you prefer GT5 over going towards Forza 3.

that's the point

Says the guy that has pretty much decided that Forza 3 will be better than Gran Turismo 5.

Keep going, oh Forza faithful. Your overlords at Turn 10 appreciate your enthusiasm.

[RedRedSuit]

Originally Posted by cuco33

Exclude GT/Forza from the racing sim market, for whatever reason including moving it to a new category altogether, will show you that no total sales in the racin sim market is not large.

No. I will do nothing of the sort.

I won't do that, as it makes no fucking sense whatsoever.

You can't exclude iPods when discussing media players. You can't discount Halo when discussing FPS. You can't discuss Pepsi and Coke when discussing soda. It doesn't matter if you think there are better, more hardcore, less accessible players/FPS/sodas out there -- you still can't exclude the mainstays of the genre. You can't. It makes no sense. Everytime you say that, it's utterly laughable.

Category 1 is GT, while 2 is Forza, and everything else is every other racing sim across all platforms. Remember that category 1 and 2 also offer a completely different experiences and options while offering many things the rest of the market has in their games.

Irrelevant. Totally irrelevant. They are sims. They are sold en masse. Therefore, the market is large. Period.

If you look at total sales, the market says yes it is huge, grand, massive.

Then there's nothing more to talk about. Looking at total sales is the only reasonable way to look at the size of the market -- by definition of the term.

Take away 1 & 2 (GT & Forza) as they are different then a core racing sim and it tells you a completely different story about the market.

Yes, if you take away the two most marketed and heavily bought racing sims, the market is small.

Too bad such an action is completely and utterly retarded.

Retry.

It was fun to debate this fellas

"Was"? Dude, please. You said it "was" XYZ like 5 pages ago... and here you are again.

I hope some of you see now what my point is about the racing sim market

I don't know about your supposed "point" -- your posts are very incoherent and remain so -- but your original statement (and one you've reiterated a few times), the one about the sim market being small/niche, remains utterly, totally false.

i guess i should be saying core racing sims, is a niche market

Ah, excellent. After getting your ass kicked for like 5 pages, it's onto redefining the original statement and backpedaling like crazy. Retry.

[Badger3920]

We're into wall of texts now over the following short, and obvious failure:

Racing sims are niche.

This is false, MANY millions of people buy racing sims. Ignoring those millions of people to claim that racing sims are niche is simply a stupid argument. There is no reason to do so.

Racing sims are big business. Forza and GT are a legitimate part of that business.

Game over for your argument.

[miDnIghtEr]

ya cuco! the game... is ... OVER! their crew said it is.. and they beat you 5 to 1 baby!!! you lose! game.. over!

[TheAnalogKid]

Since no one is even talking about this game anymore, and its been out for a little while...I'll just take that as it not being as definitive as a few hoped.

[Onslaught X]

Seeing Dan Greenawalt and Kaz Yamauchi in the same picture makes me giggle.