Forza vs GT

[RedRedSuit]

Originally Posted by cuco33

Let's say GT4 sold 20 million copies by itself and ALL OTHER racing sims barely even broke 200k with the bigger titles hitting 1 million. Is the market large? Yes,

Indeed. The answer is yes.

What games make it so, or how many games make it so, is irrelevant to the fact that the market is big. Period.

Now say arcade racers normally sell 5 million on average, and the big arcade racers, for this example NFS Gold Mine () sold 10 million. Is the arcade racer market large? Yes, even if removing NFS Gold Mine the market still is relatively large.
That's what I'm getting at.

Except that's not the situation.

Reason why GT sells well is because it is a high quality franchise many people know. There very well could be other things that are better than any game in the GT series but that's not the point, the GT title sells well due to it's brand people became familiar with.

Doesn't matter. If lots of people buy games from genre X, then the market for genre X is big. Period.

Yes because of the GT franchise (and now Forza), the market overall is large

Then we have nothing more to talk about. The market is large.

but take those titles away and you'll see arcade racers are more popular.

Why would I take them away? Do I take away Halo and CoD when I discuss the size of the FPS market?

[Todd Roberts]

Even with a penalty system in place, most want to crush the competition with speed on the straights than out cornering in the twisties.

I think you're probably right cuco33. Power is seductive, most people lust after supercars and ascribe to the old truism: "there's no substitute for horsepower." But I personally much prefer Colin Chapman's design philosophy:

[BladeofTheImmortal]

btw, since we are talking about GTA a bit. I was wondering if anyone knew the song being played during the new Episodes of Liberty City comercials. Thanks.

[Badger3920]

You might try youtube, they often post commercials there and list the songs in the info /offtopic

[DaveS1138]

Originally Posted by cuco33

and it seems like '1 button driving' with autobrake and rewind features, which was talked so down upon, is making way into GT5. Is it now OK or still dumb being that if you don't like it you don't have to use it?

I still think the rewind function is a stupid thing to add. I wouldn't mind if using the rewind button stopped you from being able to win the race.....but I gather in Forza all it does is stop you from gaining as big a "prize" when you win but you are still classed as having won the race.

I just dont get it....... You failed in the race......Why do you still get to claim a win?

And why are racing games the only ones where this is talked about as a "must have" feature.

If it's no big deal because "you dont have to use it" and "it's good for practicing" then why doesn't that hold true for other games.

How come in Fifa 10 I dont get a rewind button for those times when Liverpool score against me to let me go back and re-time my tackle?

How come in Uncharted 2 I dont get a rewind button for those times when I duck out of cover at the wrong time and get shot to let me go back and stay in cover?

How come in Pacman I dont get a rewind button so when I turned left right into a ghost's path I get to rewind time and turn right instead?

How come in a racing game it's OK to cheat but not in those other games.

If you F'up a corner then yes it sucks if you are 6 laps into a race and it cost you the lead........but you know what.......you F'd up and it SHOULD cost you the race......just as when you miss time a tackle in Fifa it can cost you a goal.....or when you mess up a shot in Uncharted it can cost you a life......

[DaveS1138]

Originally Posted by cuco33

... because it's a GRAN TURISMO game.

Think extremes as in black and white only and you won't see that the masses go more towards the arcade racer. Take away GT from any sim vs arcade racer list and you'll see that it's mostly filled up with arcade racers. It's not a hard concept to think. It's why I've said many times that GT5 will sell in droves because of the name and will outsell anything that hit the PS3 to date. Are we to believe that everyone who bought it is a sim racing fan and will fully complete the game ever so tuning cars and going for time trial runs? Reason why the name is so strong is because the word is spread, rightfully so, that the franchise is the best if not one of the best console racers out there.

I stand by this a ton, racing sim market is not as big as you think it is, even if a GT game sells in the millions because of the name. The rest of the racing sims don't do great. And most who buy a GT game won't bother doing what a "real" (now watch as someone goes apeshit over the words I use) racing sim fan will do. You'll probably hear most casual people complaining all over the web about damage being on in races, or the more serious folk asking why the noobs drop out of the race if they mess up in turn 1

You keep saying that Gran Turismo sells on it's name.......and yet if you look at sales across the series that doesn't hold true.

acording to this link

http://www.polyphony.co.jp/english/list.html

GT1 sold 10.85 Million copies
GT2 sold 9.37 Million copies
GT3 sold 14.89 Million copies
GT4 sold 10.76 Million copies

If (as you claim) the market for a sim racer is small and GT is selling on it's name alone then you should expect small sales for GT1 with the sales increasing for each title as word of mouth spreads the GT name.

But that is not what we see.

Every title of GT sells about 10 million copies (with the exception of GT3).

That tells me that there has always been a very big market for a sim racer, a market that PD were able to take advantage of right from GT1 before they had a chance to build a name for themselves and their franchise.

[Badger3920]

The xbox 360 is niche. I mean, if you forget about North America, basically no one has it. Its market is almost nill.

[Bane]

Originally Posted by BladeofTheImmortal

btw, since we are talking about GTA a bit. I was wondering if anyone knew the song being played during the new Episodes of Liberty City comercials. Thanks.

I'm not surre if there's multiple ads, but the one I've seen had "She's got the look" by Roxette.

[BladeofTheImmortal]

^yeah, i found it. Thanks for that though. I thought it sounded a lot like a Savage Garden song.

[cuco33]

me thinks everyone forgot the point or is chiming in trying to make one. as in going for the 1up

I keep forgetting that the only racing sim anyone should ever play is one from the gran turismo series. The market is grand and everyone is into racing sims because gt sales say so. Every racing sim breaks million sellers easily as this market is huge. These games sold so well there are numerous copies of them floating around everywhere on store shelves as well as in the 2nd hand market. In fact they are so popular that people always talk about racing sim games on a regular basis and many of these franchises are well known by the masses...

Reality is no other racing sim on any platform (aside from forza) has achieved what gt did by bringing in the most people into the sim market; not f1 championship edition, not f1 99-02, not iracing, not live for speed, not racepro, not dtm, not gtr, not gtr evolution, not gt legends, not rfactor, not gp, not gp legends, not race, not race07, not ferrari challenge, not richard burns rally, not nascar, not rtr, not v8 supercars, not superstars v8, not supercars gt... or any of their sequels/packs/addons or other racing sims i might have forgotten.

I haven't even played a quarter of the racing sims out there and I know they aren't any where near a million seller let alone million+ like gt/forza racing sims. Why? They have means, since their 1st iteration, to be more open to the mass audience as it's easier to use faster, more powerful, better handling, better braking cars by easily slapping modifications without tuning them at all and drive aggressively as if it were an arcade racer. the people that these features of autobrake and rewind cater more to and hence why they are being added.

Should I go on with the arcade racers that are more popular and sell more? See which ones you are more familiar with... a non gt/forza racing sim or Burnout? Midnight Club? PGR? NFS? Dirt? Grid? Ridge Racer? Out Run? Daytona? Motorstorm? Test Drive? Cruis'n USA? or any of their sequels/packs/addons or other arcade racers i might have forgotten.

[DaveS1138]

So your sticking with the argument that so long as you ignore the racing sim series that has sold more than 50 million copies then racing sims are not very popular?

[8411usmc]

Wow, I just played this game online for a few times and boy does it suck. Im going to have to say Forza 2 was more fun online. First of all not being able to race anything but a class and higher is just stupid, I mean the game doesnt start you that high. Then I noticed people were driving like robots and I kept getting toasted online. What a difference auto braking makes. I mean how stupid of an option is auto braking in a racing sim? Furthermore when racing on match making why isnt there full damage? I hate getting rammed by the 10 yr old kid who is using me as a slowdown cushen for turn 1 every race. Then need patches for this game, lots of them and fast. Online is no fun. I mean I cant choose what track I want to race, I cant choose any classes lower than A (for now I know) I cant host or search for specific tracks for private races. How could they possible hype this game and not tell you about the crap match making and how thats the only option when forza 2 was put together way better.

Look at how many people are playing this game online. Add up all the match making people and it typically comes to less than a thousand, with most of them drifiting. GT5 has a huge opportunity to eat this game alive if t10 doesnt pull their heads out of their ass. I mean it wasnt even fun.

Oh lets talk about the stupid shift with clutch option?? WTF? who thought of that? That makes your car faster? LOL Really, what about dual clutch autos? What about autos in general? Sorry but the more I play this game the more I feel it really was rushed.

[cuco33]

Originally Posted by DaveS1138

So your sticking with the argument that so long as you ignore the racing sim series that has sold more than 50 million copies then racing sims are not very popular?

Read through the list of arcade and sim racers I listed, its not all of them. Which ones are more popular? Which ones are known? Which ones generally sell better? If you wanted to make a racing game and was tossed between an arcade one or a sim one, which one has the least risk? If you say sim, you are dead wrong. Arcade market is bigger than the sim market.

Gt and forza are the only sim based games that are the exception as every other game in the genre don't fit the same model. You can have the most realistic driving/racing simulation in the world, if you offer modifications to make the car faster people accept the game as there are ways to win races. In sims its about the better driving, the better tune.. If gt and forza had tuning models only, they would not be as popular. Gt5p sold well as it was the new gran turismo which is that whole name thing
Think outside the box and away from dedicated sites of the franchises and think like j6p, your average gamer who just wants a racing game. Why else would t10 and pd even bother with autobrake and rewind??

[DaveS1138]

Well.......According to this link the 'Need for Speed' franchise just passed the 100 Million titles sold.

http://investor.ea.com/releasedetail...leaseID=417082

Now to put that in perspective that is a franchise that comprises of 15 titles over 14 platforms.......and they have sold 100 million copies.

By comparrison Gran Turismo has sold 45.87 million (link from PD, post above) copies of Gran Turismo 1-4

So for the most popular Arcade racing series vs Gran Turismo GT has made almost half the number of sales of NFS with just over 1/4 the number of releases.

Or to put it another way

NFS averages 6.67 million sales per title across multiple platforms whilst GT averages 11.47 million copies per title only available on the Playstation consoles.

And again it's not just the name of Gran Turismo that is making sales.......GT1 sold the same number of copies as GT2 and GT4. So even when the franchise had no name to sell itself on it still sold to a 10 million strong audience.

[cuco33]

Like I said, GT series (like Forza) is the exception. What other racing sim came even close to 1 million?

Know anything about statistics? If so games like GT and Forza pull the genre out of a different group. The averages are skewed due to high numbers for GT and Forza but the distribution across all games in the genre is heavily on one sided. I'm not denying that GT and Forza sells well and that it paints a picture that sims are "popular" but that's due to the masses flocking to it and only it, thanks mostly due to car modifications and not tuning. If GT1 had no modifications, it wouldn't be as popular of a title as it became but look at it's competition back then... there really wasn't any