Why was my thread closed?

[BDemon]

I created a topic here in the Blu-Ray Software General Discussion forum entitled:

"Who do you trust for the best, most informative BD reviews?"

(I'm unable to post a direct link due to having less than 10 posts).

I'm genuinely seeking trustworthy BD reviews from HD-philes more experienced than I and I was given some very positive answers and as far as I can tell, all was well in the topic but for reasons unknown, I see it was closed.

I checked to see who the moderator of that forum is so I could PM him/her for an answer, but there appears to be 13 mods. Rather than PM them all, I'll ask the question in here as it seems to be the only forum for any type of feedback (hence the name).

What is the reason for my topic being closed?

[RandellG]

Project-blu did, he edited the last post, with this:

CLOSING NOTE: no one is going to go into BDemon's home, eat his food, and say his neighbor's tastes better. they're not going to look at pictures of his kids, in his home, and say that some other guy's kids are better looking and more likely to succeed in life. same goes for care, home, wife, and so on.

this thread ran its course already. HDD has a damn good review crew, who have great credentials and history reviewing titles. Why come to this house and insult the family? not exactly good taste. if a member of the HDD crew isn't your favorite, let them know what they could improve on.

[dbacksfan]

BDemon,

Here's my personal perspective... We work really hard here at HDD, and all of us try our very, very best to write in-depth, informative, accurate, literate, entertaining, and (hopefully) thought-provoking reviews. Our reviews here are probably the most comprehensive high-def critiques on the internet. Each one takes time - a lot of time - and all of us take TREMENDOUS pride in what we produce for the readership at large and our forum members. We don't get paid much; we do this because we are passionate about movies, home theater, and writing. We don't expect everyone to agree with our opinions - the spirited dialogues we happily conduct with readers in these forums explaining our reasoning on a variety of topics are proof of that - but we do expect, or at least hope, that everyone appreciates what we do. And if you take the time to register and participate in the forums, I'd like to think that means you're a fan of the site.

So to have a forum thread that in essence opens up the floor for people to say "HDD isn't that great; this site is better" or "I don't really trust HDD" or "there's only one decent reviewer here" is demoralizing. (And let me just say for the record that I think Josh Zyber is a FANTASTIC reviewer, and he deserves all the praise he receives.) It also minimizes and trivializes all the extremely hard work we do here. We have very high standards here at HDD; the site hires only the most qualified staff, and we spend hours upon hours on each disc, trying to get everything JUST RIGHT.

I can understand if you don't like our site and would like to find another high-def review outlet (or two or three), but please don't disrespect us by opening up a conversation that invites people to list all the sites and reviewers they like better than us. If you'd like people's opinions, open up a thread asking for recommendations and have people PM you their responses. That's a much more respectful way of going about this.

I certainly wouldn't go to a dinner party at your house and say, "You know, I really don't like this meal that much; it doesn't agree with me. Tell me who's a good cook in our neighborhood." And if I did, you'd probably get angry with me and ask me to leave, or at least apologize for being rude. I don't mean to sound like Miss Manners here, but it's the same principle.

We obviously welcome criticism and suggestions for improvement, but there was nothing productive in that forum thread. Its reason for being was merely to get people to leave HDD and go to other sites for supposedly better reviews. And why would we want to rubber-stamp a discussion that's detrimental to our site and makes our reviewers feel like their hard work is dismissed? That's why I believe the thread was closed.

[CaptainCanuck]

Yeah we don't need another thread slamming the reviewers here.Google is your friend.It's easy to find movie reviews.

[BDemon]

Originally Posted by dbacksfan

I certainly wouldn't go to a dinner party at your house and say, "You know, I really don't like this meal that much; it doesn't agree with me. Tell me who's a good cook in our neighborhood." And if I did, you'd probably get angry with me and ask me to leave, or at least apologize for being rude. I don't mean to sound like Miss Manners here, but it's the same principle.

Sorry for the incredibly delayed response, but life has been hectic lately.

I won't drag this issue out or get into a whole big thing about it, but I disagree with you (and ToddS) and I'm going to express why. Here is my original post:

I find myself not always agreeing with the analysis (especially in regards to PQ) that HD Digest states, so I need another good place to go for second, even third, opinions. I've been to Blu-Ray.com, but again, I don't like putting all my eggs in one basket, so any suggestions (besides "buy it & judge for yourself)?

I've bolded two very important parts. Firstly, I never said I don't care for the reviews at HDD. I clearly stated that I don't always agree with them. BIG difference. I never singled out a specific reviewer or title review because there was no need to. Anyone who reads reviews on a regular basis (be it for movies, music, books, etc), doesn't always agree with the opinion of the reviewer and that's what I was stating here. There's nothing wrong with that.

Secondly, my "eggs in one basket" remark was to convey that no matter how good I find a site/person review[s], I prefer to have multiple choices. That statement was not intended to be a slight towards HDD (which two members of staff clearly have taken it as), and I don't need to be a "HDD IS THE BEST" rally monkey to support HDD. I like this site, hence why I joined, but I won't always agree with a review, and it's my right to seek them out elsewhere. Now the conflict is coming from the fact that I asked for suggestions publicly. If that is against the forum rules, then I sincerely apologize, but I'm used to having an open forum to freely express myself. If that's not okay here, then this place is not for me.

Now, as for both you and ToddS comparing my thread akin to going into a persons home and insulting their "family" is both incorrect and an over exaggeration. While I certainly understood what I was asking (and where I was asking it), I never insulted anyone (or came close to it). I made sure to state that I disagree sometimes and left it at that. You two interpreting my post with malicious or rude intent is vastly different than the reality of what it actually was. Even the member replies to my thread were civil and full of insight and yet, here are two members of staff basically proclaiming me to be a "bad house guest".

I don't have a problem with HDD staff closing my thread if they felt it was getting too heated or even if it was bringing up some old issues between warring sites (the animosity towards Blu-Ray.com was very apparent and had I known such issues existed, I never would've mentioned that place), but I won't be labeled as insulting when I was clearly not. It was just an honest question, boys; no offense intended.

Originally Posted by CaptainCanuck

Yeah we don't need another thread slamming the reviewers here.Google is your friend.It's easy to find movie reviews.

That's how I found this place.

[project-blu]

it doesn't matter intention. one walked into Taco Bell and said "the food is good but doesn't always agree with one's stomach, so what other mexican joints are there around here" to a Taco Bell employee (i'm sure the review crew will LOVE me comparing us to taco jockeys, even in metaphor).

and by bringing it up again, it only furthers that. it was just poor taste, regardless of intention. we have no quarrels w/ you, but there was obvious quarrel w/ that thread, a thread that would get a member banned in MANY online communities.

[Gunyaga]

Agreed. I can personally attest to having witnessed folks getting banned for posting similar threads at other sites, no questions asked. While I don't necessarily agree with that policy, your continued pressing of the point is annoying at best.

We understand that you don't understand why your post was insulting, but you need to understand that it was to the community at large, and particularly to the HDD staff that works hard to provide the best reviews they can. Understand? (while you may not have intended to offend, you did, the tactful action at that point is to briefly explain you did not mean to and apologize and move on, not continue to argue the point, that is disrespectful in and of itself IMO)

[BambooLounge]

Since it is disrespectful for the OP to continue to discuss his side of this odd argument of manners due to his initially posting of a question about where to find other reviews...I, a HDD Forum regular who seeks not other sites, will defend his side.

Without HDD Staff or other community members getting emotional or angry with me, can someone please rationally explain what about OP's thread was so disrespectful?

From what I could see, the user in question merely asked for other sites that users here found helpful and reputable. I do not think he meant to ask for a site to visit instead of HDD. I did not see an attack on the quality of reviews on HDD nor did he even express a strong sense of dissatisfaction with the site or its staff. He merely stated, that he does not always agree with the site and would like to know where else (being operative as it does not denote "instead of") users here go to read reviews.

If anything, posing the question here shows a level of respect for the site and its community that he would seek the opinion of its users in where else, having already chosen this fine site to be a part of, they go.

Lastly, can someone also please explain to me how this is any different or any more insulting than other site's reviews being posted in the forums and discussed?

I am a member of this forum due to its non-tyrannical style of moderation and rather free form discussion (outside of religion and politics) about all things high definition/film.

Unless I grossly misread something the OP wrote, I think the reaction to his rather vanilla thread gives a poor impression of this site as overly sensitive and reactionary. Something I have always admired HDD for not being.

[cardpetree]

I will also defend this guy. Unless some posts were deleted from that thread it seemed completely harmless. I never detected any sort of bashing of HDD what so ever. I still come to HDD daily and get all of my reviews and this is the site I trust for reviews the most. But with that said, I definitely don't post here nearly as much as I use to for the simple fact that some people just seem to be way high on there horse when it comes to certain threads.

[Gunyaga]

I think that the question of whether the original post was inapprpriate or not is largely water under the bridge at this point. As per the mod post in that thread, part of the reason for the lock was the potential continued bashing of other sites.

At this point, I believe a good deal of the annoyance is that whether intended or not, his post DID offend some folks, and instead of simply saying "hey, sorry guys, didn't mean to," and moving on, BDemon is trying to argue that those folks should not have been offended to start with. The very rationale for that argument assumes that BDemon knows what's OK for someone else to be offended or insulted by or not, and THERIN lies the real problem IMO.

I'll try another analogy. Say you tell a joke at work that is heard by not only your intended audience, but also others around you. Someone over hearing the joke is insulted and complains. Do you;

a) in the interest of acting as a member of a society (your workgroup), take the opprtunity to explain to your co-worker that your intention was not to offend, but acknowledge their view of the subject may be different from your own, and thus apologize and move on

or

b) staunchly defend that your joke was in fact not possibly insulting or offensive and further degrade your co-worker by essentially communicating to them that it is simply their fault that they were offended and then proceed to tell them why they should not have been offended?

One answer requires mutual given respect for others within a community, and the realization that opinions differing from yours may have just as much weight as your own whether you can identify it or not. The other shows immaturity and a lack of understanding at best, and an indifference to other people's rights and opinions at worst.

[BambooLounge]

Gunyaga...

Your analogy and approach to this issue is over-simplified.

In response to your analogy, neither scenario (a) nor (b) is actually appropriate and both are clearly worded with an obvious bias.

If someone is offended by something, that alone does not automatically warrant an apology from the "offending" party. As an intelligent member of a society, you should be able to recognize subtleties of a situation and place things in context. If someone tells an "offensive" joke sans malice and it bothers you, I would say too bad. It is just a joke and you, offended person, are being overly sensitive.

If the person tells an "offensive" joke with biggoted intent (we've all heard people tell inappropriate jokes and I am sure we were able to tell the difference between a joke that involves race/religion/etc and just a plain bigoted "joke") then not only is that person correct for being offended, but the person who told the joke is flat-out wrong for being an ignorant bigot.


Yet, the present situation is nothing like the latter example. A person posed an inoffensive topic of conversation/question. A certain group of people (HDD Staff) IMO overreacted to it and got very defensive over something that was not intended to be nor was it actually, when read correctly, offensive. These people are not owed an apology whatsoever.

Just because someone offends another person, it does not automatically make the offended party correct. As you say, if we are to act like a member of a society, we should all realize that a society is a complex thing and that the only way it can work is if people keep things in perspective. The better a society's ability to contextualize and act rationally and accordingly, the better the society.

In your scenario, a politically correct and overly polite world, would be a rather dull and unintelligent one unfortunately, as new ideas may offend those who have different ideas or are just otherwise easily offended.

You mention maturity. Complex thinking and drilled down specific contextualizing (aka avoiding generalization at all costs) is the truest mark of maturity b/c it results in reasoned and rational discourse.

[project-blu]

Originally Posted by BambooLounge

Lastly, can someone also please explain to me how this is any different or any more insulting than other site's reviews being posted in the forums and discussed?

that web is far more tangled than you want to get into in this thread. not good idea.

I am a member of this forum due to its non-tyrannical style of moderation and rather free form discussion (outside of religion and politics) about all things high definition/film.

and yet, some people freaked out about censorship when a topic that had nothing to do with the site was given the kibosh (not you). diff strokes, diff folks. some think the moderation here is tight and it's a good thing, some think it's tight and it's a very very bad thing.

if you want to talk about off site review linking, senor bamboo, fire me a PM.

[paaron46]

I'm kind of late to the discussion on this one, but I'll chime in on how it made me feel personally as a staff member here. While it may not have been intended, what felt offensive about the OP's post was:

I find myself not always agreeing with the analysis (especially in regards to PQ) that HD Digest states...

To a reviewer this makes us feel like you are saying that our reviews are terrible, but especially the PQ parts of the review. Seemed like a sneaky slap in the face.

The other part of the problem was opening up a thread that was, without a doubt, going to turn ugly fast without just Googling your problem or even, better yet, heading to CinemaSquid where you can find ALL the sites, visit them, and then just pick from there.

In the end it has been discussed already that these types of threads (and the posting of other reviews) would be banned without question at other sites. While we like the freedom of speech here and not tyrannically ruling everyone with an iron fist, it must be carefully balanced with what is best for the site. If our forums are driving traffic to other sites, that is not in the site's best interest. Just like when you walk in to Wal-mart they don't tell you to go to Target.

[TripleHBK]

Just my 2 cents on this issue...

While I can agree and understand where both parties are coming from... I can accept the fact that HDD staff do reserve the right to decide what can and cannot be discussed in the forums. However, If asking for reputable alternatives, or discussing other review sites is going to be a no-no from this point forward, and we are expected to not ask for other sources of opinion regrading reviews, then wouldn't it be fair to ask that no forum users, be they staff or simply a member, link to their own review sites? I know of at least a couple users who have dedicated links to their own movie, PQ, & AQ reviews in their own signitures. If member X can't ask for any other reputable review sites, then why should member Y be able to list their site in their signiture? Furthermore, if member Y was a staff member of HDD and had his own webpage on the side that also provided news, and reviews, wouldn't they then be in violation of the very rule they're enforcing here on HDD?

I'm all for an orderly and well moderated message board. I understand why hot button issues such as religion and politics are flagged as no-no's, and quite honestly, this is one of the most efficent and orderly communities I've been a part of, however we have a couple of smackdown forums on this very site who's sole purpose seems to be to discuss issues that are very polarizing and quite frankly piss off alot of members. Personally, I can't stand any of the smackdown forums, and stay clear of them typically, however if the shenanigans that go on in those forums can be tolerated, then I fail to see why we as a community can't at a minimum tolerate the idea that other review sites exist, may also have worthwhile opinions, and discuss the many ideas shared between those sites and this one in a civil manner.

[project-blu]

signatures:

(28) *NEW* Affliliate Links
Posting of affiliate links, redirects or links that generate revenue is prohibited. Signatures may include one link to the user's own site.

Member Y, in violation of said rule, would be addressed by his higher ups, both in moderation, and in staff, if he violated rules of this forum. additionally, Member Y kinda knows the rules.

Bamboo, pm'ing you back.