'NIN: Beside You in Time' - High-Def Digest Review

[jed]

We just posted Peter's review of 'Nine Inch Nails Live: Beside You in Time,' and this one earns a virtually unqualified rave from Mr Bracke. Granted, he's a fan of the band, but with five star rating for both audio and video, sounds like this is the concert disc to beat...

Full review here:
http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/nine...youintime.html

[okay flint]

He's right on the audio and video, but are incredible.

Extremely cheap also.

Best Blu-ray I have in my collection so far.

[Speed3]

I thought this was 1080p? the Menu is 1080p but when the show starts it drops to 1080i. Is this happening to other people?

[reset]

Edit: Sorry, browser problems...

[reset]

This is a fantastic disc for showing off your setup. I would highly recommend it, especially at 16 bucks. But I think it also shows off some of the limitations of the tech at this point. To be fair, concert footage is probably a worst case scenario. Most people (I think) will just look and say "wow".

There is a fair amount of graininess/crawling(?) in the fog and a few rare instances with some modest loss of detail, not bad but noticeable in playback. There's a clip at 1:15:33 that's just plain ugly.

Focus, when it was on it was incredible. Throughout the show you see a lot of focus correction, or just plain out of focus shots. Not wildly so, and not artsy stuff, just trouble dialing in their target. The depth of field is pretty shallow, that hurt a fair amount I think.

In some scenes the camera apparently could not deal with the intensity of some of the reflections, (see 1:19:36 and 1:19:47) expect a fair amount of blowout(?) when the blue lights come up. Trent's headset and the drum kit are persistent offenders throughout.

I kinda feel bad about bringing these up considering the condition of some film conversions we've seen (even some of the good ones). If the Nine Inch Nails disc is any indicator, HD cameras (especially in more controlled conditions) are going to make even the best film conversions look second rate. I can hardly wait.

[jonallen]

Originally Posted by Speed3

I thought this was 1080p? the Menu is 1080p but when the show starts it drops to 1080i. Is this happening to other people?

Yes, it appears that the blu-ray version of the disc is actually 1080i. Below is some discussion from a NIN forum explaining why.

"Quote:
Originally Posted by KrisDeering View Post
BYIT was shot in 1080p30. 1080p30 cannot be encoded directly onto a Blu-ray disc because of the specification for the format. So it is encoded onto the disc as 1080i. The HD DVD is encoded as 1080p30 because HD DVD supports that format natively.

Any BD player except the PS3 should output 1080p for you with no issues, but the PS3 will only output the native resolution encoded on a disc. It will not do anything with it.

Make no mistake, even with the BD being 1080i it still has the full resolution of 1080p when de-interlaced properly and all BD players do this correctly (except the PS3 obviously).

There are some other minor things that I could talk about with regards to the BD version but I really don't think they need to be brought up. I will comment more on them when I do my review of the two versions for my publication which I am hoping to have up next week sometime when I get back from travel.

For anyone looking for a link to the website check out the end of the FAQ for BYIT, Rob put a link to my site there when he thanked me for helping with the FAQ."

I see what you are saying about the 1080p30 thing, but I think you are mistaken to say that it is the full resolution. I don't know of any technique to "de-interlace properly" that doesn't result in poor image quality. You can combine frames... this will result in jagged lines when there is motion (weaving). You can blend frames which results in blurring. Or you can upconvert to 1080p (which is what most players and tvs will do) which usually involves line doubling which again will give you visual artifacts.

For more see the "deinterlacing" wikipedia article "Artifacts will always be present in deinterlaced video"

It is certainly misleading to say 1080p on the packaging of the blu-ray when the video is actually 1080i. This is not to say I am unhappy with the release and wouldn't have bought it otherwise. It's great... I just expected more I guess. I recall Rob saying that he can not discern a difference in video quality between HD-DVD and blu-ray, so as long as when he was saying that he was referring to the 1080i blu-ray, I suppose it doesn't matter.

[jimby]

I am the production supervisor on all three versions of the NIN releases, and I just wanted to correct/clarify some information in the above posts.

>>Originally Posted by KrisDeering View Post
BYIT was shot in 1080p30. 1080p30 cannot be encoded directly onto a Blu-ray disc because of the specification for the format. So it is encoded onto the disc as 1080i.<<

This is correct except for the last sentence. The actual encode on the disc is 1080/30p. Because the BD spec doesn't support 1080/30p, the encode is flagged as 1080/60i, however the actual encode is 30p.

If a BD player, set to output 1080p, looks at each progressive frame and decodes appropriately, there should be no issues. You will get a 1080p stream.

If a player only looks at the flag (and not the actual content) then it could decode it as interlace.

Keep in mind that we had NO CHOICE but to flag the content as 1080/30i as 1080/30p is not supported by the spec. How this stuff is decoded by the player and displayed is entirely up to each player model. These are early times for BD, and this stuff will eventually get worked out.

But to reiterate, the actual content on the disc is a 30p encode.

Regards,
Jim

[Godstar]

Originally Posted by jimby

I am the production supervisor on all three versions of the NIN releases, and I just wanted to correct/clarify some information in the above posts.

>>Originally Posted by KrisDeering View Post
BYIT was shot in 1080p30. 1080p30 cannot be encoded directly onto a Blu-ray disc because of the specification for the format. So it is encoded onto the disc as 1080i.<<

This is correct except for the last sentence. The actual encode on the disc is 1080/30p. Because the BD spec doesn't support 1080/30p, the encode is flagged as 1080/60i, however the actual encode is 30p.

If a BD player, set to output 1080p, looks at each progressive frame and decodes appropriately, there should be no issues. You will get a 1080p stream.

If a player only looks at the flag (and not the actual content) then it could decode it as interlace.

Keep in mind that we had NO CHOICE but to flag the content as 1080/30i as 1080/30p is not supported by the spec. How this stuff is decoded by the player and displayed is entirely up to each player model. These are early times for BD, and this stuff will eventually get worked out.

But to reiterate, the actual content on the disc is a 30p encode.

Regards,
Jim

Thanks for the information jimba and great work on the film!

[DMRSX]

This is an AMAZING disc! Absolutely reference quality all the way around.

I saw the live show twice and this is the closest I've ever felt to being at a concert at home.

[DanzBorin]

I got the HD DVD, but I'm sure the blu-ray is just as stunning...

after seeing 3 shows on this tour, I'll tell you it's as close to the real thing as possible without being there...

[Godstar]

I saw the flick last night, and I was just blown away. Of the two concert videos out, I own both, this one by far blows away the U2 video. The sound was impecible, the visuals were stunning. Especially the parts where you were watching video/effects on the matte screen in the film.

And what's up with Trent? He's starting to look a little beefy. I don't mean that in a bad way either. He's gone the route of Henry Rollins!

[Cysquatch]

Originally Posted by jimby

I am the production supervisor on all three versions of the NIN releases, and I just wanted to correct/clarify some information in the above posts.

>>Originally Posted by KrisDeering View Post
BYIT was shot in 1080p30. 1080p30 cannot be encoded directly onto a Blu-ray disc because of the specification for the format. So it is encoded onto the disc as 1080i.<<

This is correct except for the last sentence. The actual encode on the disc is 1080/30p. Because the BD spec doesn't support 1080/30p, the encode is flagged as 1080/60i, however the actual encode is 30p.

If a BD player, set to output 1080p, looks at each progressive frame and decodes appropriately, there should be no issues. You will get a 1080p stream.

If a player only looks at the flag (and not the actual content) then it could decode it as interlace.

Keep in mind that we had NO CHOICE but to flag the content as 1080/30i as 1080/30p is not supported by the spec. How this stuff is decoded by the player and displayed is entirely up to each player model. These are early times for BD, and this stuff will eventually get worked out.

But to reiterate, the actual content on the disc is a 30p encode.

Regards,
Jim

I've stuck alot of games and movies in my PS3. This is by far the most amazing piece of work that has graced the console. Simply jaw-dropping.

[reset]

Originally Posted by Godstar

I saw the flick last night, and I was just blown away. Of the two concert videos out, I own both, this one by far blows away the U2 video. The sound was impecible, the visuals were stunning. Especially the parts where you were watching video/effects on the matte screen in the film.

And what's up with Trent? He's starting to look a little beefy. I don't mean that in a bad way either. He's gone the route of Henry Rollins!

According to the interview in Rolling Stone he quit doing drugs, fired his manager (also heavily into drugs), and started lifting.

[kali]

Originally Posted by jimby

I am the production supervisor on all three versions of the NIN releases, and I just wanted to correct/clarify some information in the above posts.

>>Originally Posted by KrisDeering View Post
BYIT was shot in 1080p30. 1080p30 cannot be encoded directly onto a Blu-ray disc because of the specification for the format. So it is encoded onto the disc as 1080i.<<

This is correct except for the last sentence. The actual encode on the disc is 1080/30p. Because the BD spec doesn't support 1080/30p, the encode is flagged as 1080/60i, however the actual encode is 30p.

If a BD player, set to output 1080p, looks at each progressive frame and decodes appropriately, there should be no issues. You will get a 1080p stream.

If a player only looks at the flag (and not the actual content) then it could decode it as interlace.

Keep in mind that we had NO CHOICE but to flag the content as 1080/30i as 1080/30p is not supported by the spec. How this stuff is decoded by the player and displayed is entirely up to each player model. These are early times for BD, and this stuff will eventually get worked out.

But to reiterate, the actual content on the disc is a 30p encode.

Regards,
Jim

jimby,

It is great to see you here on this forum. Thanks for coming and talking about your work.

I have been doing some analysis/comparisons of encodes and bit-rates on my system. FWIW, I used to write Equipment Reviews for The Perfect Vision back in the late 90s.

I had a question about the encodes for these discs.

A bit over 2 or 3 (2:23 or 3:23 IIRC) minutes into the first track I observed the bit-rate go up to 50mb/s during a close-up of the musicians with a netting of some kind hanging in front of them.

I noticed a bit of moire and rainbow effect on my PS3 if I play it slowly. I saw this on the Blu-ray version only. The HD DVD version was less detailed but it did not have those artifacts.

Is this a source artifact that was captured accurately by the Blu-ray transfer or do you think it is possibly an artifact introduced by the PS3 which happens to upsample chroma from 4:2:0 to 4:4:4 profile (at least according to my Crystallio II)?

[jimby]

Originally Posted by kali

jimby,

It is great to see you here on this forum. Thanks for coming and talking about your work.

I had a question about the encodes for these discs.

A bit over 2 or 3 (2:23 or 3:23 IIRC) minutes into the first track I observed the bit-rate go up to 50mb/s during a close-up of the musicians with a netting of some kind hanging in front of them.

I noticed a bit of moire and rainbow effect on my PS3 if I play it slowly. I saw this on the Blu-ray version only. The HD DVD version was less detailed but it did not have those artifacts.

Is this a source artifact that was captured accurately by the Blu-ray transfer or do you think it is possibly an artifact introduced by the PS3 which happens to upsample chroma from 4:2:0 to 4:4:4 profile (at least according to my Crystallio II)?

I am not sure what's up with the bitrate at that spot (50's probably a composite audio/video bitrate as the video max of BD is 40mbps.) Our compressionist did use near max bitrate in areas keep PQ high (if you got it, flaunt it

The screen is woven, semi-transparent, glass-beaded front-projection screen. Typical encoding nightmare. The moire is probably caused by the slightly greater detail of the woven pattern on BD encode, but I'd have to go back and take a look to make sure. I'm pretty sure that is on the source.