Revisiting Toshiba Super Upconversion : It is really a super resolution 960p native

[Deadmeat]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=975151

http://hdpro.jp/images/contents/event/071019/img_02l.jpg

Toshiba's "Super Upconversion" is really "super resolution", a technique used to create single high resolution image by fusing multiple low resolution images. In other word,

Nine 480p frames fused via computation = One true 960p frame.

No wonder Super Upconverted pics looked HD, because the output is true 960p native.

Now that we know Super Upconversion produces 960p native output, this is a viable HD video technology able to compete with Blu-Ray, and 90% of consumers wouldn't be able to tell the difference between 1080p native Blu-Ray and 960p native Super Upconverted DVD.

[tolitzpogi]

It's "good enough" I guess...

:)

- T

[Woody]

Oooooo, ooooo does it come with lossy audio too?!?!


Can't wait!!!

[Stranger Danger]

Depends on the source. Not all sd dvd are created equal.

[Deadmeat]

Oooooo, ooooo does it come with lossy audio too?!?!
Can't wait!!!
Most people depend on a pair of cheap speakers attached to HDTV. Can't tell the difference between AC3 and Lossless PCM with those set up.

[Deadmeat]

Depends on the source. Not all sd dvd are created equal.
If Toshiba goes this path, then first thing they would do is ask the studios to boost DVD bitrate. In other word, the return of Superbit.

[Stranger Danger]

My friend says his built in speaker on his olevia 37" are great. 15watts must be good enough for him

[SRFan]

You are assuming all these 9 frames are identical, where in reality objects move around and the camera pans around.

[kururo]

Most people depend on a pair of cheap speakers attached to HDTV. Can't tell the difference between AC3 and Lossless PCM with those set up.

don't you mean most people don't depend on hd-tv's and cant tell the difference between 1080p and 480p?

[Jason One]

How exactly is this better than true 1080p Blu-ray?

[Deadmeat]

How exactly is this better than true 1080p Blu-ray?
Most people can't tell the difference, hence no need for Blu-Ray.

[kulmbacher]

If Toshiba goes this path, then first thing they would do is ask the studios to boost DVD bitrate. In other word, the return of Superbit.

And why would studios (who are pushing true HD formats) want to do that exactly?

Super Up-Conversion seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

[cleeve]

Have they announced a price point?


There's 2 things that concern me with this: How much it costs and when it's coming out. Two huge factors for success.

[michealo]

ugh, the ban wasn't permanent.

still not impressed with "super upconversion", will have to see if it catches on. doubtful.

[BD/PS3fan]

If Toshiba goes this path, then first thing they would do is ask the studios to boost DVD bitrate. In other word, the return of Superbit.

Right, and all the studios that support BD would do this for Toshiba why?

[Rishi]

If Toshiba goes this path, then first thing they would do is ask the studios to boost DVD bitrate. In other word, the return of Superbit.
And the first thing the BD studios will say is "piss off."

[Deadmeat]

You are assuming all these 9 frames are identical, where in reality objects move around and the camera pans around.
Actually, super resolution depends on differences in pics to boost resolution.

[ScoBro828]

still not impressed with "super upconversion", will have to see if it catches on. doubtful.
I am .. I would purchase one.

[tolitzpogi]

How exactly is this better than true 1080p Blu-ray?Just a guess, but the contention is if it's "good enough" and doesn't make any difference to J6P's eyes, it should be a good competitor to HD so that it won't get as much of a mass adoption when HD DVD loses.

The Look and Sound of Good Enough... pardon the cliché

But hell, I'll buy one anyway... my existing DVD collection isn't going anywhere, after all...

- T

[Deadmeat]

And the first thing the BD studios will say is "piss off."
You mean studios want to hurt their DVD business by crippling DVD picture quality?

[Jason One]

Most people can't tell the difference, hence no need for Blu-Ray.
In that case, there was no need for HD DVD, either. Isn't that right?

[Rishi]

You mean studios want to hurt their DVD business by crippling DVD picture quality?
Nothing is being crippled. Superbit had it's day and there wasn't much interest in it from the consumer. DVDs won't be downgraded, I'm just saying that studios are unlikely to rehash a failed concept which will cannibalize sales of their HDM products.

[tiberius]

Now that we know Super Upconversion produces 960p native output, this is a viable HD video technology able to compete with Blu-Ray, and 90% of consumers wouldn't be able to tell the difference between 1080p native Blu-Ray and 960p native Super Upconverted DVD.

And what about all the special features of HD DVD and Blu-ray? Don't you think people will want those? Even in a perfect upconverting world where upconversion is as good as true HD the additional features won't be available. And why would we want upconversion? Isn't upconversion merely an interim solution until we have everything in high definition?

[Roshan]

You mean studios want to hurt their DVD business by crippling DVD picture quality?

Why superbit? bit rate does not matter:rolleyes:

[tolitzpogi]

In that case, there was no need for HD DVD, either. Isn't that right?"If we can't have it, no one can..."

Explains the whole point of this thread...

- T

[Deadmeat]

In that case, there was no need for HD DVD, either. Isn't that right?
Yes. No need for HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, high bitrate DVD + Super Upconversion DVD player or HDTV set is good enough for 90% of population.

[Deadmeat]

"If we can't have it, no one can..."

Explains the whole point of this thread...

- T
Actually Toshiba continues to make money on DVD as long as Blu-Ray doesn't take off.

[arrowspark]

I'm going to have to wait for a side by side comparison at my local best buy before I make any conclusions about "Good enough".

[Stories]

But wouldn't this require 9 separate frames to recreate a 960p resolution image? There's only 1 frame of 480p data on the disc... where are the other 8 coming from to make this increase in resolution?

[Deadmeat]

Why superbit? bit rate does not matter:rolleyes:
It does for MPEG2.

[michealo]

Yes. No need for HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, high bitrate DVD + Super Upconversion DVD player or HDTV set is good enough for 90% of population.


the same 90% of the population that claimed VHS was good enough when DVD players were expensive?

the nonsense returns.

[nextoo]

Hey if it makes DVD look better why not. Especially for those with large collections.

When Henry Ford rolled out the first Model A they didn't shoot all the horses did they?

[SRFan]

You cannot make something out of nothing. Super upconversion is still guessing what other pixels should be by looking at the neighboring frames. Again, it still is a guess, nothing else. It can be wrong many times, when there are pans, rapid movement scenes, cuts. It could only do reasonably well if the camera is moving very slowly and predictably. It will NOT be the same as 960p or even close to it.

[Deadmeat]

But wouldn't this require 9 separate frames to recreate a 960p resolution image? There's only 1 frame of 480p data on the disc... where are the other 8 coming from to make this increase in resolution?
Front 4 frames and back 4 frames.

[tolitzpogi]

Actually Toshiba continues to make money on DVD as long as Blu-Ray doesn't take off.Wasn't talking about the DVD industry, I was talking about HD ... since they will lose their predicted profits when HD DVD loses, they will maximize their DVD royalties by making sure people would not consider HD if there's something "good enough" ... nice business tactic, I might say... if not a tad desperate...

- T

[Deadmeat]

You cannot make something out of nothing. Super upconversion is still guessing what other pixels should be by looking at the neighboring frames.
But a damn good guess, of course.

[cooper1010]

why are we revisiting this? the thread you linked to was last posted in on 01/13 and has no new info. welcome back, by the way.

[crazzeto]

Oooooo, ooooo does it come with lossy audio too?!?!


Can't wait!!!

I guess you must have missed all those reviews of the HD DVD resident evil imports (german) which have Lossy DTS-HD... The result was, compared to the TrueHD lossless tracks, you couldn't hear the difference... Check it out on the HD DVD section of HDD.

Anyway, with my lossless v. lossy argument out of the way.... Regular DVD audio won't be that good, on a decent sound set up you'll hear the difference. Still, this tech will be great on all those DVD's I own that I can't afford to replace.

[bgstewar]

Most people depend on a pair of cheap speakers attached to HDTV. Can't tell the difference between AC3 and Lossless PCM with those set up.

damn...thought you got banned!!

[Jason One]

Yes. No need for HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, high bitrate DVD + Super Upconversion DVD player or HDTV set is good enough for 90% of population.
Then why were you such a huge HD DVD supporter? Shouldn't you have been railing against both formats all along, rather than rooting for HD DVD?

[zeroprobe]

How can you create detail thats not there in the first place ?????

[Deadmeat]

why are we revisiting this?
Because we have new information.

I did go through Japanese presentation slides and can confirm super upconversion is indeed real-time "Super Resolution".

In other word, it is not upconversion at all as the name implies.

[Geoff Gibson]

How does a studio make more money with this process? How will this make people rebuy catalog titles and or spend more money on a next generation media? The point of next generation media from a studio (and CE) standpoint is new revenue streams. NOT supporting existing revenue streams.

Studios do not want to protect Toshiba's patents and licensing rights. They want to make money. Shutting down Blu-Ray to firm up the DVD business will not result in new revenues, just a return to the revenues they enjoyed before 2007. The studios want us paying $20+ for a movie not $9.99+

Why would a studio go for this? Why would other CE's do this and undercut a new hardware revenue stream? Why would retailers embrace this rather than new hardware?

[Stories]

But a damn good guess, of course.

Then you're fusing 9 different frames together to extrapolate another frame? Sounds like there's going to be definite PQ issues.

[bgstewar]

Actually Toshiba continues to make money on DVD as long as Blu-Ray doesn't take off.

yeah, I'm sure they're making a killing on those $125 A3s...:))

[g.k.]

The idea is fairly sound, although of course not for all material or scenes, and there are other limits such as MPEG artifacts that will forever limit how well it can be done.

But this will be great technology to have when we can super-upconvert our Blu-rays to 4k.

[Deadmeat]

How can you create detail thats not there in the first place ?????
They are located in other frames.

Super Resolution has been done in image processing for ages. It is just that Toshiba is now doing on videos in real time.

[cooper1010]

Then why were you such a huge HD DVD supporter? Shouldn't you have been railing against both formats all along, rather than rooting for HD DVD?

he's not an hdm supporter; he has neither players. he is a "champion of the people," a consumer advocate who is here to dissuade from buying into blu-ray.....and purchase superupconversion instead, i guess.

[Deadmeat]

The idea is fairly sound, although of course not for all material or scenes, and there are other limits such as MPEG artifacts that will forever limit how well it can be done.

But this will be great technology to have when we can super-upconvert our Blu-rays to 4k.
But people can't tell the difference between 1080p and 2160p.

[cooper1010]

Because we have new information.

I did go through Japanese presentation slides and can confirm super upconversion is indeed real-time "Super Resolution".

In other word, it is not upconversion at all as the name implies.

then post that, not an old avs thread. hey, aren't you supposed to stay out of avs?!

[Rishi]

Because we have new information.

I did go through Japanese presentation slides and can confirm super upconversion is indeed real-time "Super Resolution".

In other word, it is not upconversion at all as the name implies.
If the output resolution is higher than the source resolution it is upconversion. Simply because there are no scaling artifacts does not mean that the amount of detail is equal to that of native 1080p.

[DrCheese]

Most people can't tell the difference, hence no need for Blu-Ray.

But of course, there was every need for HD-DVD wasn't there? :rolleyes:

I'm not saying that improvements in upconverion is a bad thing, we've got masses of amounts of SD content out there that won't be replaced for ages but for a known HD-DVD fanboy to now say that HDM isn't needed is pretty hilarious.
Super or not, upconversion will not replace proper HD and you know this.

[Deadmeat]

How does a studio make more money with this process?
They could reverse consumer spending slide on DVD.

Studios do not want to protect Toshiba's patents and licensing rights.
Studio's priority goes to protecting DVD revenue. Blu-Ray and downloads are of secondary considerations.

[Roshan]

Wasn't talking about the DVD industry, I was talking about HD ... since they will lose their predicted profits when HD DVD loses, they will maximize their DVD royalties by making sure people would not consider HD if there's something "good enough" ... nice business tactic, I might say...

- T

Deadmeat seem like he does not care about HDM. Blu ray player p1.1 will probably be $200 this christmas. What price is this super upconversion, when will it come out? If consumers don't notice the diff between 1080p and unscaled dvds. what makes you think they will notice the diff on 720p TV. I think this will work good with all types of video. What happens when you have blur (fast camera movement).

[Deadmeat]

But of course, there was every need for HD-DVD wasn't there? :rolleyes:
This tech wasn't available in 2002.

[spicynacho]

Hey deadmeat, any idea for a pricetag on these super upconversion players? If they are using cell, don't you think they will probably be close to the price tag for a PS3?

And aside from the PS3, is there any device on the market that can achieve these results either now or in the future through firmware updates?

[Brahma]

And why would studios (who are pushing true HD formats) want to do that exactly?

Super Up-Conversion seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Doesn't exist?

Toshiba I'm sure considers losing the format battles to be a problem. What a wonderful way to land a low blow to the BD consorteum.

As wonderful as 1080/p @24fps is, A well transferred DVD scaled up looks pretty darn good, check out Star Wars scaled up, it really looks good. if that is all there was, I'd be pretty happy and I'm pretty finicky about PQ. I'm pretty darn sure, most people would settle if they can buy a DVD movie at 5.99 and it becomes near HD.

[mgardiner]

Not sure I see where this is a HD DVD v. Blu-Ray smackdown topic...

But maybe this explains Toshiba's crap HD DVD marketing campaign, they'd already given up and moved onto something else.

HD DVD :the sound of deck chairs being re-arranged on the Titanic

[txfeinbergs]

But wouldn't this require 9 separate frames to recreate a 960p resolution image? There's only 1 frame of 480p data on the disc... where are the other 8 coming from to make this increase in resolution?

EXACTLY! This is crap. Either the data is there or it isn't... and in this case, it isn't! An algorithm is trying to guess what the data should be by doing frame comparisons. That might get you some improvement, but there is no way it is going to be the same as actually having the real data.

[DueNorth]

Yes. No need for HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, high bitrate DVD + Super Upconversion DVD player or HDTV set is good enough for 90% of population.

Then no need for expensive blue laser... use the cheaper red laser in DVD players.

Now all you need is box it and sell it as a super upconversion DVD player for $199.

[DrCheese]

Studio's priority goes to protecting DVD revenue. Blu-Ray and downloads are of secondary considerations.

erm no, Studio's will place as much importance on next generation future sales as they will current generation sales. Any company that doesn't do that is doomed to failure.

This tech wasn't available in 2002.
So? It's still not better than native HD and yet again you know this.

[Deadmeat]

Hey deadmeat, any idea for a pricetag on these super upconversion players?
It depends on Toshiba. The core chipset cost is ~$50.

If they are using cell, don't you think they will probably be close to the price tag for a PS3?
Different CELL. Toshiba CELL is redesigned and fabbed on a much cheaper process.

And aside from the PS3, is there any device on the market that can achieve these results either now or in the future through firmware updates?
None. Only PS3 can do it. But the head of PS3 firmware development(loaned from Sony) who promoted this got kicked out of SCEI and shipped backed to Sony.

[Geoff Gibson]

They could reverse consumer spending slide on DVD.

Studio's priority goes to protecting DVD revenue. Blu-Ray and downloads are of secondary considerations.

I addressed the first part in my first response but you didn't quote the whole passage. Studios want a new revenue stream. They want to sell discs at a higher profit margin -- how does this process you are advocating accomplish that goal?

As to the second point you could not be more wrong. If you look to open a new revenue stream you know you may be cutting into your own business and affecting present revenue streams, but you do so in order to capitalize on potentially larger profits. This is why studios are now allowing VOD day and date with DVD releases. Because they are investing in a new stream, a new infrastructure.

How does supporting this Super Upconversion accomplish this goal?

[goshikisen]

Because we have new information.

I did go through Japanese presentation slides and can confirm super upconversion is indeed real-time "Super Resolution".

In other word, it is not upconversion at all as the name implies.

How is it super resolution? What resolution is the source? You still can't conjure up detail where there is none...

[Deadmeat]

EXACTLY! This is crap. Either the data is there or it isn't... and in this case, it isn't! An algorithm is trying to guess what the data should be by doing frame comparisons. That might get you some improvement, but there is no way it is going to be the same as actually having the real data.
People who have seen this in person at CES, namely Japanese press, loved it. This is a real deal.

[Deadmeat]

How is it super resolution? What resolution is the source? You still can't conjure up detail where there is none...

Nine 480p frame fused via computation -> One true 960p frame output

[g.k.]

Not sure I see where this is a HD DVD v. Blu-Ray smackdown topic...

But maybe this explains Toshiba's crap HD DVD marketing campaign, they'd already given up and moved onto something else.


Which they'll undoutably be unable to market well either.

Don't believe me? List of memorable Toshiba marketing campaigns here _____.

[BLJ]

I think I got the answer why Toshiba And HD-DVD lost the fight. They make a product which can't even compete with upconverting dvd and think people are dumb enough not recognizing the difference in PQ with that of Blu-Ray.

Now I for sure won't buy in to HD-DVD because I want quality and Hi-def video. This is what Toshiba has to offer?
Seems like they give a damn if i'm satisfied with whatever media wins as long as they get my money. In it for the consumer?

[DueNorth]

How is it super resolution? What resolution is the source? You still can't conjure up detail where there is none...

You know digital zoom on your digital camera? You are basically zooming into existing data and extrapolating the new stuff. It is something like that but with a more complicated algorithm.

It isn't as good as having the source at higher resolution but it is extrapolating the missing stuff.

[txfeinbergs]

People who have seen this in person at CES, namely Japanese press, loved it. This is a real deal.

Fair enough. I will wait to see it in person and judge for myself. If it really makes my existing DVDs look better, and the cost is reasonable, then I will consider it.

[tolitzpogi]

Yeah, the topic pretty much reveals how dedicated Toshiba is in revolutionizing the HD landscape...

Sore losers...

- T

[g.k.]

Fair enough. I will wait to see it in person and judge for myself. If it really makes my existing DVDs look better, and the cost is reasonable, then I will consider it.

I'm sure it could be a selling point on Toshiba's eventual Blu-ray players.

[SRFan]

People who have seen this in person at CES, namely Japanese press, loved it. This is a real deal.
Only on cherry picked, low to no movement scenes where the lighting doesn't change I bet. Not to mention that you're a proven liar and I don't believe you.
Stop it, noone is as excited about this as you are, and it will never be an adequate substitute for 1080p full HD.

[telamon]

The point of superupconversion is to sell more Toshiba HDTVs.

A lot of people have source material that they like to watch that isn't in HD yet. Think existing DVD collections, home movies, SD TV channels, etc...

If Toshiba integrates the technology into their HDTVs, they will sell more TVs.

Walk into a Best Buy and you'll still see a ton of TVs (both SD and HD) still being driven by SD signals. Imagine a 27" or 32" LCD TV with superupconversion sitting next to some other brand that doesn't have it and they are both showing an SD feeds. Which TV are you going to buy as a consumer?

[goshikisen]

Nine 480p frame fused via computation -> One true 960p frame output

How are you creating "true" 960p from 480p? Is the 960 detail in the original source or is this a process, as others have described, where detail is extrapolated from a low-res image. The word "true" is misleading.

The detail isn't there... if you weren't a self-affirmed Sony despiser I'd be more open to this but as it is it looks like a really low-value consolation prize.

[ack_bak]

The only people talking about "super upconversion" seems to be you Deadmeat. Toshiba could not sell HD DVD, and they will have the same problem trying to sell "super upconverting players" as well. BTW, the OP from the link you provided also states this at the end of the thread (which I found amusing):

OK, I may be talking to myself at this point. I down loaded a program that us supposed to use super resolution on video.

I does better that upconversion on straight lines but honestly, I could perceive no increase in real resolution.

If Toshiba does no better, I am dissapointed.

.

It looks to me like Toshiba knows that they will be pulling the plug on HD DVD sooner than later and super upconversion is nothing more than a marketing gimmick to cling to their DVD royalties.

[Xyz123]

Yes. No need for HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, high bitrate DVD + Super Upconversion DVD player or HDTV set is good enough for 90% of population.

Not for this forum.

I am permanently placing you on my ignore list because it is clear you have no true interest in HDM and intend only to inflame.

[g.k.]

The point of superupconversion is to sell more Toshiba HDTVs.

I think that's right on the money. Why waste this tech on SD DVD players, which are a commodity market money losing proposition now anyway. This will be limited to their TVs, where they still make money.

Even so, this won't be a substitute for true HD content.

[nextoo]

Was the super upconversion demonstration at CES a last minute placement in response to the Warner decision?

It is a rhetorical question.

Meaning perhaps the super upconvert technology has been moving along on its own path regardless of any HD DVD success or lack there of.

[theflux]

Great news, will this feature be available to all current HD DVD players?

[Sus Ano]

I can't tell if you are a viral marketer for Toshiba or simply a huge fan of SDVD.

Granted good old DM has zero credibility but posts like these make me more and more sure that as soon as HD-DVD can no longer slow HDM adoption Toshiba will pull plug on the format and start pumping out the Super Upconversion players. Will it be this year or next is really the only question...

Thankfully most HD-DVD owners have turned out to true fans of high definition movies and are moving away from a company determined to keep SDVD around as long as possible.

[spicynacho]

It depends on Toshiba. The core chipset cost is ~$50.


Different CELL. Toshiba CELL is redesigned and fabbed on a much cheaper process.


None. Only PS3 can do it. But the head of PS3 firmware development(loaned from Sony) who promoted this got kicked out of SCEI and shipped backed to Sony.

If the chipset costs $50 and you also have to add PCB, casing, drive, power supply, packaging, shipping, marketing, and warranty. Seems like the manufacturer's cost will be in the $100 range. So we can expect this to be retail priced at $300-400 (unless toshiba wants retailers to sell these at cost too) competing against 1080p upconverting dvd players at $75.

Right, I can see the sales person explaining how 960p is $225 better than 1080p now...

[Deadmeat]

Was the super upconversion demonstration at CES a last minute placement in response to the Warner decision?
Toshiba has been demonstrating this since last fall, but only for HDTV sets.

The word from Toshiba insiders is that Toshiba's new strategy is to focus on upconversion as HD-DVD player's selling feature. If this is the case, then putting super-upconversion into HD-DVD players also makes sense. The technology is already there.

Meaning perhaps the super upconvert technology has been moving along on its own path regardless of any HD DVD success or lack there of.
For HDTV sets.

[philippvr6]

Blu-ray and HD-DVD isnt just better than DVD because of the resolution.

Color is wayyyy better, compression and so on....

[AV_Integrated]

Nine 480p frame fused via computation -> One true 960p frame output
No, it doesn't. You can't continue to say that interpolated information and data is true pixel for pixel delivery - identical to a source that originated as 1080p... or 960p.

You see, all that can possibly happen is frame scaling.... Processing. The ability to use chips which can handle this interpolation across nine frames instead of the more typical two or three, in real time, is a good thing for upconversion.

But, don't try to push the line that it somehow changes the original source from something more than it is.

You see, DVDs have compression artifacts that are readily apparent due to the MPEG2 compression and this loss of detail is truly gone - it isn't gone across one or two frames, but is gone across the entire sequence of frames that includes that detail. There is no recovery of fine detail that is non existant on the original frame, but you likely will get fringing from the processing that is applied to the video.

Why are you here?

Are you here to discuss HD formats?

Why do you continue to spread false information about upconversion being something different than upconversion?

What proof, of any actual performance ratings do you have under Benchmark testing as to the quality?

What proof, of actual quality do you have regarding HD optical discs, of either format, when compared to this upconversion?

At what point do you think your opinion is actually more important than reality?

[checkingout]

Studios will still have additional revenue from VOD/DL, BD and maintain their current sources for cash - such as SD-DVD.

Perhaps everyone on this board are very high achievers’ and expect BD to supplant SD-DVD along with everything else (VOD/DL etc.)..It ain't going to happen.

Really, this new technology is cool…if it performs as promised. If successful, Super Up-Conversion will be great for many Standard DVD’s. Of course, if you need every possible pixel, you will need to get true HD with Blue-ray. If this works, I don’t see the problem. BD will be fine.

I addressed the first part in my first response but you didn't quote the whole passage. Studios want a new revenue stream. They want to sell discs at a higher profit margin -- how does this process you are advocating accomplish that goal?

As to the second point you could not be more wrong. If you look to open a new revenue stream you know you may be cutting into your own business and affecting present revenue streams, but you do so in order to capitalize on potentially larger profits. This is why studios are now allowing VOD day and date with DVD releases. Because they are investing in a new stream, a new infrastructure.

How does supporting this Super Upconversion accomplish this goal?

[tolitzpogi]

Why are you here?

Are you here to discuss HD formats?

Why do you continue to spread false information about upconversion being something different than upconversion?

What proof, of any actual performance ratings do you have under Benchmark testing as to the quality?

What proof, of actual quality do you have regarding HD optical discs, of either format, when compared to this upconversion?

At what point do you think your opinion is actually more important than reality?

PWNED

- T

[Roshan]

No, it doesn't. You can't continue to say that interpolated information and data is true pixel for pixel delivery - identical to a source that originated as 1080p... or 960p.

You see, all that can possibly happen is frame scaling.... Processing. The ability to use chips which can handle this interpolation across nine frames instead of the more typical two or three, in real time, is a good thing for upconversion.

But, don't try to push the line that it somehow changes the original source from something more than it is.

You see, DVDs have compression artifacts that are readily apparent due to the MPEG2 compression and this loss of detail is truly gone - it isn't gone across one or two frames, but is gone across the entire sequence of frames that includes that detail. There is no recovery of fine detail that is non existant on the original frame, but you likely will get fringing from the processing that is applied to the video.

Why are you here?

Are you here to discuss HD formats?

Why do you continue to spread false information about upconversion being something different than upconversion?

What proof, of any actual performance ratings do you have under Benchmark testing as to the quality?

What proof, of actual quality do you have regarding HD optical discs, of either format, when compared to this upconversion?

At what point do you think your opinion is actually more important than reality?
Many times he has made up FUD like PS3 can't software BC for ps2 while 360 can software BC xbox. So his point was 360 is more powerful then PS3 because of BC. Which was false even with proof he would not stop the lies.

[Solid Paul]

not true full HD 1080p...sorry not interested...next!

[spicynacho]

No, it doesn't. You can't continue to say that interpolated information and data is true pixel for pixel delivery - identical to a source that originated as 1080p... or 960p.

You see, all that can possibly happen is frame scaling.... Processing. The ability to use chips which can handle this interpolation across nine frames instead of the more typical two or three, in real time, is a good thing for upconversion.

But, don't try to push the line that it somehow changes the original source from something more than it is.

You see, DVDs have compression artifacts that are readily apparent due to the MPEG2 compression and this loss of detail is truly gone - it isn't gone across one or two frames, but is gone across the entire sequence of frames that includes that detail. There is no recovery of fine detail that is non existant on the original frame, but you likely will get fringing from the processing that is applied to the video.

Why are you here?

Are you here to discuss HD formats?

Why do you continue to spread false information about upconversion being something different than upconversion?

What proof, of any actual performance ratings do you have under Benchmark testing as to the quality?

What proof, of actual quality do you have regarding HD optical discs, of either format, when compared to this upconversion?

At what point do you think your opinion is actually more important than reality?


Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry!!!!

[kururo]

No, it doesn't. You can't continue to say that interpolated information and data is true pixel for pixel delivery - identical to a source that originated as 1080p... or 960p.

You see, all that can possibly happen is frame scaling.... Processing. The ability to use chips which can handle this interpolation across nine frames instead of the more typical two or three, in real time, is a good thing for upconversion.

But, don't try to push the line that it somehow changes the original source from something more than it is.

You see, DVDs have compression artifacts that are readily apparent due to the MPEG2 compression and this loss of detail is truly gone - it isn't gone across one or two frames, but is gone across the entire sequence of frames that includes that detail. There is no recovery of fine detail that is non existant on the original frame, but you likely will get fringing from the processing that is applied to the video.

Why are you here?

Are you here to discuss HD formats?

Why do you continue to spread false information about upconversion being something different than upconversion?

What proof, of any actual performance ratings do you have under Benchmark testing as to the quality?

What proof, of actual quality do you have regarding HD optical discs, of either format, when compared to this upconversion?

At what point do you think your opinion is actually more important than reality?

intergrowned

[BrutalDeluxe]

And why would studios (who are pushing true HD formats) want to do that exactly?

Super Up-Conversion seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

No, Blu-ray (and HD DVD) are a solution to a problem that doesn't exist - to most people.

[Arkadin]

I'm sure there are all kinds of exagerrations, etc. etc.
that said, IF Toshiba does plan to use this against Blu-Ray, this is cetainly a worthy topic for smackdown imo.
The bda has already stated that it is moving on from worrying about HD DVD.
bd is going to HAVE to address the fact that it is nowhere near mainstream and that that is where it wants to be supposedly. Although I have many doubts about this.
Regardless of whether OP is indeed correct on every point or merely just a deadbeat, it's time for the hardcore blu's to begin to honestly figure out some actual reality based strategies to this apparent threat to the upcoming blu kingdom.

[whitefangv]

Oh man if it really is this good I'm gonna buy as soon as it comes out. No need to individually upgrade my DVD collection, I'll just turn them all into HD with this.

[Roshan]

Super dvd upconversion name sounds like a gimick. It probably will not have market appeal. Maybe toshiba is looking into 4th gen hd dvd players. With the cell to power up conversion and hd dvd play back it would only increase the cost by under $100. Would require alot of power and/or good programmers
Super upconversion for people who care about quality
HDM cares about qualty

Notice how they both care about quality.
People who have HDM still own dvd movies.
I can see hardcore people getting super upconversion for their dvds.

People who cant see the diff between normal upconversion and 1080p HDM will buy super upconversion for some reason deadmeat? Maybe because it contains the word super? It will cost more then the most expensive dvd upconversion player on the market already. Will it be out this year. Will they even sell 100,000 supers' this year if they come out in summer.

[Crackbone]

I find it pathetic that because your format of choice lost you'd like Toshiba to screw all of us. That's just wonderful.

Personally, I'd like to progress to a format with HD color depth and resolution native.

[kururo]

I find it pathetic that because your format of choice lost you'd like Toshiba to screw all of us. That's just wonderful.

Personally, I'd like to progress to a format with HD color depth and resolution native.

but but...its too expensive. cause obviously buying a new tv or super upconvertor is much cheaper.

[Blik]

If you google a bit, you'll stumble across several universities / labs (such as Intel's) that are working on these matters.

While their showcase videos actually look impressive, the fact remains: It's guesswork. Truely amazing guesswork, I admit, but nevertheless - guesswork.

It may look "better" than the "average" upscaling, but I highly doubt that it will come close to true HD. In fact, all the sources I saw and found, look more or less blurry - not surprising: if you happen to work with digital imagery you'll know the effects.

There is a physical law: You cannot create something out of nothing, and this applies here. I guess it will fail terribly at fast movements and where the original source isn't top-notch quality to begin with.

Guys, it's not like you see in C.S.I. when they take a crappy surveillance camera feed and convert it to Full HD THX 7.1 120Hz in bare seconds (while somehow even changing the camera angle)! The real life is different ;)

This gets even more silly with each passing week! But... but... but... what about my super resolution? Does it affect my attach rate because I'll stay with SD DVD!?

[Merlins]

Yes. No need for HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, high bitrate DVD + Super Upconversion DVD player or HDTV set is good enough for 90% of population.

Here is the "good enough" argument again. I guess VHS is good enough for most people. Why care about invented pixels?

You can not add something that does not exists. If you use nearby frames to get some extra information you will get weird results in some cases and it will not be the true information because it does not exists then you have a 480i source and tries to blow it up to 960p or 1080p. Wonder what all people with 720p and 1080p LCD TV:s will say then they either get black bars around the movie or some wrong down/upscaleing from 960p to 720p or 1080p...

Upconversion is NOT HighDef or true 960p. If people would be satisfied with a second best we would still have VHS or even older technology... Deadmeat dropped the support for HD-DVD pretty fast. Is this the same thing Toshiba is doing?

[TheGreenDude]

The 601x602 resolution picture in the first post proves it! It's unpossible I tells ya to see the difference! (well, with such low res image anyways)

[rick240]

On what display does this 960p image go to?

My HDTVs accept 720p, 1080i, 1080p....no 960p!

So does this 960p image then get downconverted to 720p or re-upconverted to 1080p?

Or do I have to buy a new TV with 960p capability?

[ultradark buckshot]

If Toshiba goes this path, then first thing they would do is ask the studios to boost DVD bitrate. In other word, the return of Superbit.

so bitrates do matter now. is that what I just heard? and really this not competition for blu ray. its competition for hd vmd. and I think its toshiba's first step in throwing in the towel for hd dvd.

[cooper1010]

On what display does this 960p image go to?

My HDTVs accept 720p, 1080i, 1080p....no 960p!

So does this 960p image then get downconverted to 720p or re-upconverted to 1080p?

Or do I have to buy a new TV with 960p capability?

you need a new "uber upconversion" display from toshiba. see how that's better for the consumer?! thanks, deadmeat!

[JS1]

And what about all the special features of HD DVD and Blu-ray? Don't you think people will want those? Even in a perfect upconverting world where upconversion is as good as true HD the additional features won't be available. And why would we want upconversion? Isn't upconversion merely an interim solution until we have everything in high definition?

Personally I would much rather pay DVD prices and get near HD quality (if that's possible) without all the special features, instead of paying ridiculous prices for catalog releases in Blu-Ray with a few stupid extras 90% of people don't care about anyways. Picture quality is the main improvement for most people.

[kowhite]

I love how 90% of the population can't tlel the difference between HD and Super Upconversion, but 99.99999% of the population has never even seen super upconversion.

Amazing how Deadmeat knows the public's opinion on something they've never seen. Well really, it's not amazing, but a commentary on how much an...well, I can't call names. But they're deserved.

[Roshan]

so bitrates do matter now. is that what I just heard? and really this not competition for blu ray. its competition for hd vmd. and I think its toshiba's first step in throwing in the towel for hd dvd.

Also extras dont matter now.

[Cap'n Neutrality]

So does this 960p image then get downconverted to 720p or re-upconverted to 1080p?




No, it would get super-upconversion-upconverted....

...or super-reconverted-down-upconversion...

...or super-re... con......up....vert...down....


...um, my brain hurts now. :))

[Ellsworth]

Why is he back?

Just wait Deadmeat. When super super upconversion of 1080p signals to 2160p NATIVE comes around, the detail will be crazy.

In fact pretty soon they won't even make high megapixel cameras anymore, they'll just stick to like 1 mega pixel cameras and do the super upcoversion on it. since its really not upconversion, and is actually a higher NATIVE resolution.

[kali]

So is there a high res capture of this somewhere. Both sides look like shit... The right looks like over sharpened shit...

[Arkadin]

[QUOTE=Ellsworth;680477]Why is he back?

Are you serious? This dude probably has AT LEAST 3 more bannings before it becomes permanent based on other members experiences I have noted while I have been here.
Really, he is just getting started.

















Note: this comment should not in any way be misconstrued as a criticism of HDD. all rights reserved. copyright 2008.

[krylonman]

Then you're fusing 9 different frames together to extrapolate another frame? Sounds like there's going to be definite PQ issues.

That was my first thought. Nine frames is a pretty wide range to make something like this actually work. I can already think of a hundred examples of quick cutting and motion that would seem guaranteed to break something like this.

[Ellsworth]

That was my first thought. Nine frames is a pretty wide range to make something like this actually work. I can already think of a hundred examples of quick cutting and motion that would seem guaranteed to break something like this.

No. Obviously you are wrong. Why do you fail at common sense. Clearly we should just open a section of the forum called 'wisdom from Deadmeat' where we can all go to be educated.

[NovaKane]

If the price was decent, I mean REALLY decent, and the technology works, I might purchase a player like this to handle my SD-DVD library.

However, having a machine like this would NOT motivate me to invest another dollar in buying DVDs, as I would still continue to replace my existing collection with HD discs.

So I doubt a machine like this is going to reverse the sales slide that SD-DVDs currently find themselves in, as most of us would continue to gravitate towards High Def.

[garak]

Let me guess. Deadmeat thought that HD DVD was going to win the format war. So he saved and saved and then bought 100 shares of Toshiba, hoping to get rich.

Then realizing HD DVD was going to sink faster than the Titanic, he changed his tactics to spread misinformation/half-truths/omissions/outright lies to create FUD against BD, hoping that it wouldn't take off. He knows that as long as BD doesn't take off, Toshiba will keep it's DVD royalty stream, and he can hope to get his money back from his 100 shares.

Why is this guy back in the forum?

[cooper1010]

Let me guess. Deadmeat thought that HD DVD was going to win the format war. So he saved and saved and then bought 100 shares of Toshiba, hoping to get rich.

Then realizing HD DVD was going to sink faster than the Titanic, he changed his tactics to spread misinformation/half-truths/omissions/outright lies to create FUD against BD, hoping that it wouldn't take off. He knows that as long as BD doesn't take off, Toshiba will keep it's DVD royalty stream, and he can hope to get his money back from his 100 shares.

Why is this guy back in the forum?

i think it's much more simple than that; he's a paid troll.

[The BJD]

Unless this is part of the HD DVD plan it is irrelevant in this forum. I have an ass-load of HD DVD's and I want to hear about a plan to keep that format viable instead of trying to upconvert my DVDs. I will go blu if HD DVD is not a huge part of this strategy. I have been loyal to their format and feel it is the better of the two for reasons greater than the 1080p picture. I like the easy menus, u-control and web stuff as well as the superior sound and picture. I don't want to hear about super-upconvert technology unless HD DVD drives are in all of those players.

[*TL]

Most people depend on a pair of cheap speakers attached to HDTV. Can't tell the difference between AC3 and Lossless PCM with those set up.

If Toshiba goes this path, then first thing they would do is ask the studios to boost DVD bitrate. In other word, the return of Superbit.

Three comments, in no particular order:

1) I thought you were banned. *Sigh*

2) Your two statements above are self-contradictory. If studios are going to base their releases on the equipment "most people" have, "most people" don't have HDTV and won't have "super upconversion."

3) Studios have no incentive to help Tosh in this little gambit. They want to resell their catalogs in high def, not prolong the value of Toshiba's patents, err, I mean, SD DVD.

[Wulf]

You know what I find funny about some of the defensive comments against this tech, some of you think the studios have to go along with this move by Toshiba. Wake up! They don't get a choice!

1.) If Toshiba releases the player and it does indeed work. Why wouldn't the consumer buy it?

2.) So, now you guys think the studios are gonna kill DVD! Good luck with that, I hear VHS has finally been passed up by DVD. How long did that take now?

3.) (This is the best part) If your DVD's are good enough why would the public want to invest in Blu-ray if the movie I have at home is almost as good as Blu-ray (with the help of this tech of course).

4.) The Public decides if it lives or dies and there isn't a damn thing the studio's can do to stop it's release! (They need DVD sales period!)

5.) I know next you'll say well the retailers won't carry this! Wrong which would a retailer perfer to carry a new hardware tech (takes up less shelve space) or a whole new format that might die anyway? Hmmm hard choice for a retailer.

6.) If Toshiba was really smart they'd throw in the HD-DVD tech in the player for free of charge to continue the support of HD DVD like they planned all along!



I'll have to see this tech for myself but, if it passes my standards then congrads Blu-ray on the HD-DVD victory and welcome to your still born death.
I'll buy one of these without a second thought if it truly does what it says.
Toshiba really turned Blu-ray death blow around on Blu if the tech does what it's expected to do. Anyway I'll be watching and will decide if Blu-ray is in my future or a damn good player (from Toshiba with this tech). Afterall, why waste money replacing movies when the US is this close to a recession? Movie sales on Blu isn't gonna reverse that I know...

[krylonman]

No. Obviously you are wrong. Why do you fail at common sense. Clearly we should just open a section of the forum called 'wisdom from Deadmeat' where we can all go to be educated.

LOLers.

Seriously, if they're already doing public demonstrations there must be some sort of real-life answer to that, but damned if I can figure out what it would be. My best guess is...maybe it accepts or rejects the nine-frame data depending on whether or not it seems to match? I can't see how always using the eight frames around the currently playing one could work.

[bt12483]

Most people can't tell the difference, hence no need for Blu-Ray.

hence no need for HD DVD then either, right?

So 1080p on either format is pointless then? you cant have it both ways there deadmeat, is your super upconverted 960p good enough or is the 1080p of HD DVD or bluray superfluous?

and what is it with you anyway? are you in favor of HDM or in favor of super upconversion? i can't decide...one minute you are touting HD DVD and then the next minute super upconversion. meanwhile, always bashing bluray. either support only HD DVD or leave, because for the one millionth time, this is the HD DVD vs bluray forum. super upconversion should not be discussed with the frequency with which you bring it up, mainly as a way to negate the need for bluray (which is ironic since the very same argument negates the need for HD DVD).

too bad your ban wasn't permanent...

i hope you are at least getting paid to confuse unknowing people on this forum about HDM.

[Cap'n Neutrality]

Afterall, why waste money replacing movies when the US is this close to a recession?


And how did you get into a recession??

Oh, yeah....

You "bought" that there were WMDs in Iraq and you "bought" that Saddam was connected to 9/11....

It isn't too hard to imagine how you could be "bought" into this "super-upconversion" snake-oil, as well. :rolleyes:

[The BJD]

And how did you get into a recession??

Oh, yeah....

You "bought" that there were WMDs in Iraq and you "bought" that Saddam was connected to 9/11....

It isn't too hard to imagine how you could be "bought" into this "super-upconversion" snake-oil, as well. :rolleyes:

Who didn't think there were WMD's in Iraq? Revisionist history is my favorite subject.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnceSIxxOYg

"When I left office, there was a substantial amount of biological and chemical material unaccounted for. That is, at the end of the first Gulf War, we knew what he had. We knew what was destroyed in all the inspection processes and that was a lot. And then we bombed with the British for four days in 1998. We might have gotten it all; we might have gotten half of it; we might have gotten none of it. But we didn't know. So I thought it was prudent for the president to go to the U.N. and for the U.N. to say you got to let these inspectors in, and this time if you don't cooperate the penalty could be regime change, not just continued sanctions."
--Bill Clinton, July 22, 2003

[Hi i'm God]

hahah @ actually believing there where wmd's in Iraq. No WONDER you thought HD DVD had a chance at winning this war.

[Cap'n Neutrality]

Who didn't think there were WMD's in Iraq? Revisionist history is my favorite subject.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnceSIxxOYg

"When I left office, there was a substantial amount of biological and chemical material unaccounted for. That is, at the end of the first Gulf War, we knew what he had. We knew what was destroyed in all the inspection processes and that was a lot. And then we bombed with the British for four days in 1998. We might have gotten it all; we might have gotten half of it; we might have gotten none of it. But we didn't know. So I thought it was prudent for the president to go to the U.N. and for the U.N. to say you got to let these inspectors in, and this time if you don't cooperate the penalty could be regime change, not just continued sanctions."
--Bill Clinton, July 22, 2003


"But we didn't know"....

Y'know who else "didn't know"...??? ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq5mQLArjmo

"Now what is the message there? The message is that there are known "knowns." There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."

Classic. :))

[The BJD]

hahah @ actually believing there where wmd's in Iraq. No WONDER you thought HD DVD had a chance at winning this war.

I was going by Bill Clinton's statements, though I should have recognized his lips were moving so he was probably being untruthful.

Back on topic, upconversion from Toshiba better involve an HD DVD drive.

[Hi i'm God]

I was going by Bill Clinton's statements, though I should have recognized his lips were moving so he was probably being untruthful.


haha @ Untruthful (http://www.publicintegrity.org/WarCard/). Of course when you spin things it's always funny to those that know better.

[The BJD]

haha @ Untruthful (http://www.publicintegrity.org/WarCard/). Of course when you spin things it's always funny to those that know better.

The Clinton Kool-aid drinkers never admit anything. I get it "Bush lied" and Clinton didn't come out and support the decision to go to war with Iraq. It wasn't that long ago.

[steaky]

Studios wont like this, so its not going to get support from them. they want the double dips on Blu-rays.

[HiDefFanboy]

Hey if it makes DVD look better why not. Especially for those with large collections.

When Henry Ford rolled out the first Model A they didn't shoot all the horses did they?

Uhm, they... They Shot the horses? :(

So how are those VHS tapes you have? Still playing many movies on them?

[theHDphantom]

Uhm, they... They Shot the horses? :(

So how are those VHS tapes you have? Still playing many movies on them?

I still watch a lot of VHS today. I got a huge collection, so I might as well still use them. Heck, I'm still buying VHS movies from hock shops.

[HiDefFanboy]

I still watch a lot of VHS today. I got a huge collection, so I might as well still use them. Heck, I'm still buying VHS movies from hock shops.

...and you are saying this is normal?

Hey, man - ever hear about this new format called DVD?

(Note: By 'normal' I mean what the majority of people do - just so you don't take this as a personal attack :))

[bazie]

1) Doesn't have high def audio
2) Doesn't have internet interactivity
3) Doesn't have PiP or any of the other fancy menu/games/features/threading etc possibility on both formats. Remember these last two points are the much heralded advantages of HDDVD
4) Is likely to give weird artifacts and inconsistent results in fast motion/cuts and fades etc. Definitely won't be as good as the real thing
5) Even still, isn't is only 960p not 1080p....why opt for less when you can have more
6) Seems to require a large amount of processing power, hence why it hasn't been available for years, and thus i doubt the prices are going to be any cheaper then high def media.
7) Movie studios don't want this, they want products with all the bells and whistles and features that bluray/HDDVD can offer to they can justify the price

In summary, noone cares, it isn't as good, and noone wants it.

[hstewarth]

Isn't the native resolution of all DVD 480p - so 960p resolution is not actually true resolution - but scaled up resolution - so each pixel is actually two pixels

[Solo 88]

You are assuming all these 9 frames are identical, where in reality objects move around and the camera pans around.

excellent point this would cause bluring on fast or action sequences or pans for that matter.

[Deadmeat]

Isn't the native resolution of all DVD 480p - so 960p resolution is not actually true resolution - but scaled up resolution - so each pixel is actually two pixels
It is 960p native because this 960p frame is the result of composition of 9 480p frames.

http://www.astrosurf.com/cidadao/super_09.jpg
An example of super-resolution.

Above four images were combined to produce higher resolution Jupiter.

[Frankly]

So this works for photos.

The proof will be in the pudding, and I consider this complete crap until it's out and demo'd. You know, kind of like the TL51s. I'll believe it when I see it.

Also for your consideration: Are they achieving this using the CELL processor? If they are, I wonder how hard it would be to achieve it with a firmware upgrade in a PS3. Just something to think about.

[Ace_of_Sevens]

This works great when you have four photos of Jupiter fromt eh same angle or different angels that have been matched to a 3d computer model to correct for perspective. I'll believe it would work in real time on video when I see it.

[Deadmeat]

So this works for photos.
A movie is nothing more than a series of photos.

The proof will be in the pudding, and I consider this complete crap until it's out and demo'd.
Enough journalists report back that it worked.

Also for your consideration: Are they achieving this using the CELL processor?
Yes

If they are, I wonder how hard it would be to achieve it with a firmware upgrade in a PS3. Just something to think about.
The PS3 firmware chief who promoted this got kicked out and shipped back to Sony.(Sony and SCEI are two separate and competing entities with a history of ill blood between them.) Sony knows this thing works, so that's why they don't want to see this in PS3.

[ccphilly1984]

But a damn good guess, of course.

welcome back DEADMEAT! we all missed you dearly... we even had a poll to see who missed you. will someone start a thread to welcome back deadmeat?

[1jzgte]

Depends on the source. Not all sd dvd are created equal.

neither are all Blu-rays or HD

[Roshan]

A movie is nothing more than a series of photos.


Enough journalists report back that it worked.


Yes


The PS3 firmware chief who promoted this got kicked out and shipped back to Sony.(Sony and SCEI are two separate and competing entities with a history of ill blood between them.) Sony knows this thing works, so that's why they don't want to see this in PS3.
Hey FUDmeat
the samples at CES where probably at high bit rate and lets see how well it works on blur. Do you know what the price is? It will cost more then the average upscaller.

[chocobomog]

A. Why is this in the Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD Smackdown? It is neither format. You were banned once, and now that you are back it looks like you will be banned again.

B. How long will it take for this to come out? How much will it cost? If it uses the Cell processor, it is not going to be cheap, and there is no proof the PS3 couldn't do the same thing. It may come out too late to affect anything. By that time, cheap Blu-ray players may be available.

C. Studios won't support this. They want to make money by reselling their movies again (like they did when selling DVDs to VHS owners). If this doesn't require people to re-buy movies, the studios make no profit. Expect a lot of anti-super conversion ads from studios explaining why true High def (Blu-ray) is better. The only company who will be pro super conversion is Toshiba. Once again it will be Toshiba vs the studios, and we know how well that turned out with HD-DVD.

[Frankly]

This works great when you have four photos of Jupiter fromt eh same angle or different angels that have been matched to a 3d computer model to correct for perspective. I'll believe it would work in real time on video when I see it.

Yeah, just how many movies are shot multiple times? Hmmmmm.... I'm doubting the video aspect of this, as well now.

[HiDefFanboy]

A movie is nothing more than a series of photos.


Enough journalists report back that it worked.


Yes


The PS3 firmware chief who promoted this got kicked out and shipped back to Sony.(Sony and SCEI are two separate and competing entities with a history of ill blood between them.) Sony knows this thing works, so that's why they don't want to see this in PS3.

I don't doubt that this would work to enhance some scenes with very small changes between pixels. i.e. each detail has to be tracked at the pixel edges a multiple number of times. This means your scenes cannot be very fast moving, but they must be moving in a very predictable maner. This has all been done before in computer software. The basics are edge detection algorithms. The sad thing is that all these algorithms produce very noticable artifacts with certain types of images, by introducing new and disturbing 'detail' that was never there.

This is very similar to the 120hz LCD tvs out right now - they all produce an interpolated image that was never there. What can you say, it works for some types of scenes, not so well for others.

If this becomes a selling feature of DVD players, you can bet that the PS3 will get this feature.

But just imagine what you can do with this by giving it a true 1080p source matterial to work with. =p~

[hstewarth]

It is 960p native because this 960p frame is the result of composition of 9 480p frames.

Above four images were combined to produce higher resolution Jupiter.

That is not actually higher resolution - that is just blending of low resolution frames to simulate high resolution. It a false sense of reality.

One of most amazing things I notice in Blu-ray on XBR2 is with Pearl Harbor Blu-ray - in one image I actually notice small little hairs on a girls chin. Super Resolution BS would never be able to achieve this because source would never have it. You can not make detail out of something where the source of detail.

The funny thing I notice about these super resolution images is that they never have true detail - like very small lines, detail electronics, high tech space.

You can show images of blending all day to novices - but for some one like myself how has a hobby with 3d graphics - this is really BS.

Besides I believe a lot of TV's have this ability built in - I know my projector has it and its 3 years old. Works great for old re-runs of Star Trek.

[93xfan]

man, Toshiba is a really pathetic company. i seriously doubt the BDA would try this if Blu-ray was going to be the next Betamax, but one can only speculate.

[stockstar1138]

Only on cherry picked, low to no movement scenes where the lighting doesn't change I bet. Not to mention that you're a proven liar and I don't believe you.
Stop it, noone is as excited about this as you are, and it will never be an adequate substitute for 1080p full HD.

bingo!every pic of sup-upconversion i have seen is brite and vivid. what does this thing do in a dark scene where 6 frames show no detail and two frames do, guarenteed detail gets left out. one more thing is how this does scene changes. if four frames are in a store another four are outside what is this sup -upconversion gonna show?

[HiDefFanboy]

bingo!every pic of sup-upconversion i have seen is brite and vivid. what does this thing do in a dark scene where 6 frames show no detail and two frames do, guarenteed detail gets left out. one more thing is how this does scene changes. if four frames are in a store another four are outside what is this sup -upconversion gonna show?

What's it gonna show ... pretty bad artifacts. You see lines where there should be none.

Also I doubt this can deal with features that are single pixel in width.

[CaptainCanuck]

Sooper upconversion:The look and sound of Plan b"

[checkingout]

Studio's have nothing to do with this, unless they stop making SD-DVD's.


C. Studios won't support this. They want to make money by reselling their movies again (like they did when selling DVDs to VHS owners). If this doesn't require people to re-buy movies, the studios make no profit. Expect a lot of anti-super conversion ads from studios explaining why true High def (Blu-ray) is better. The only company who will be pro super conversion is Toshiba. Once again it will be Toshiba vs the studios, and we know how well that turned out with HD-DVD.

[cooper1010]

A movie is nothing more than a series of photos.

nothing more?! c'mon, a little more, right?

Enough journalists report back that it worked.

link it. and not in japanese, please.

Yes

great

The PS3 firmware chief who promoted this got kicked out and shipped back to Sony.(Sony and SCEI are two separate and competing entities with a history of ill blood between them.) Sony knows this thing works, so that's why they don't want to see this in PS3.

the ps3 upconverts, but they don't want it to superconvert?! if they were afraid of blurring the line between hd and polished sd, they wouldn't have put any upconvert in at all. don't you have a poor history of predicting ps3 firmware topics (as well as just about everything else)?

[Zagan]

Let me guess these players will be called SDHD-DVD players, you know they up-convert SD DVDs and you can also super up convert SD DVDs oh and BTW it has so feature called HD-DVD in it but it's probably not needed so doesn't matter much.

[littlealex]

Was the demo material at CES MPEG2 compressed or was it off SD tape? Cos the way I see it, MPEG2 compressed material is itself already using the technique Deadmeat is excited about just to reproduce at 480i. A second of material coming from a dvd is not a series of 30 discrete frames but 30 frames with any non changing detail thrown away. So if this tech looks 4 frames either way at MPEG2 material it's unlikely to find much additional information. That's just to get to 480i and that's just on high bitrate, static material. Put one of the action sequences from Bourne or The Kingdom through it and compare the result to the HD-DVD. Any punter who can't see the difference will just stick to SD anyway.

[Deadmeat]

That is not actually higher resolution - that is just blending of low resolution frames to simulate high resolution. It a false sense of reality.
False sense of reality is widely used at various US intelligence services and scientific institutions.

The truth is that Super Upconversion works; it is a proven algorithm that just required massive computational power to work on motion pictures, and that computational power arrived in the form of CELL.

As much as CELL is useless for gaming, it is excellent for AV processing.

[kab123]

VHS, CD, DVD are all primary examples of how technology progresses. If you think we’re going to stick with DVD forever you’re mighty wrong. Either HD DVD or BD (more likely) will eventually replace DVD. It can start happening in a years time or maybe in 5. Sooner or later DVD will die.

[Crackbone]

False sense of reality is widely used at various US intelligence services and scientific institutions.

The truth is that Super Upconversion works; it is a proven algorithm that just required massive computational power to work on motion pictures, and that computational power arrived in the form of CELL.

As much as CELL is useless for gaming, it is excellent for AV processing.

Let's see it in a consumer product before even talking about it.

Furthermore, every iteration I've seen of this technology is in the display, not in a player.

[Deadmeat]

Let's see it in a consumer product before even talking about it.

Furthermore, every iteration I've seen of this technology is in the display, not in a player.
That was before Toshiba decided to focus on improving upconversion quality in its HD-DVD players as its new HD-DVD strategy.

[Deadmeat]

VHS, CD, DVD are all primary examples of how technology progresses. If you think we’re going to stick with DVD forever you’re mighty wrong. Either HD DVD or BD (more likely) will eventually replace DVD. It can start happening in a years time or maybe in 5. Sooner or later DVD will die.
CD lived on for 20 years. DVD will enjoy similar long life.

There are plenty of newer techs that failed to replace the older ones, such as LD, SACD, Super-VHS, D-VHS, and UMD. Blu-Ray's failure to replace DVD wouldn't be the first, nor the last, example of that.

[stockstar1138]

deadmeat, dont know if you know a guy who used to go by hdnow, but you should inform him on sup-upconversion because his website is ver pro-hd media and it seems like he was wrong......AGAIN!

[Fettastic]

It still can't create detail that isn't present on the transfer. That means it's just a very sharp SD image, probably with less visible artifacts.

As for those demo shots, I think we're all pretty familiar with the SD vs. HD depictions on both HD DVD and BD demos and realize how completely laughably innacurate they were.

In other words, once Super Upconversion stops being vaporware (like 45GB and 51GB), I'll believe it. But the truth is that I've sold almost all of my DVDs anyway so I don't really have much use for this.

[stockstar1138]

im assuming this is cheaper than bd, which most likely means lower margins for retailers. if i have was a retailer i would be thinking twice before buying into another low margin, half @$$ed solution from toshiba, who has already failed once with hd media. toshiba would have a lot of answering to do on why this wasn't just a gimmick for them to try to keep royalties.

[bazie]

CD lived on for 20 years. DVD will enjoy similar long life.

There are plenty of newer techs that failed to replace the older ones, such as LD, SACD, Super-VHS, D-VHS, and UMD. Blu-Ray's failure to replace DVD wouldn't be the first, nor the last, example of that.
Did DVD FAIL because it didn't replace the CD? Merely extended and augmented the market?

That is exactly what HDDVD/bluray were aiming to do. They don't want DVD to not exist at all....since they require people to have 35+ inch 1080 TV sets to even be relevent, they were never going to completely take over. The point is to get a large, viable percentage of market share.

And it is VERY likely they will be able to do that.

[kab123]

CD lived on for 20 years. DVD will enjoy similar long life.

There are plenty of newer techs that failed to replace the older ones, such as LD, SACD, Super-VHS, D-VHS, and UMD. Blu-Ray's failure to replace DVD wouldn't be the first, nor the last, example of that.

Yeah whatever you say slick. Neither of those formats you mention got even close to the current market penetration BD and HD DVD has at the moment. As for BD, it’s even available in certain parts of Africa. People are interested in it. If there is interest, there’s a potential market. The formats you mentioned had zero interest and zero market. BD will grow together with HDTVs. But you can buy your cell processor TV. :rolleyes:

[kab123]

You fail epically to understand the concept of technological progression. Do you truly believe we'll be using DVDs in the year 2020 because Toshiba said it’s good enough? This is a slow moving industry as has been proven by CD but the last year has proven that there is interest in HDM optical disc. Yes, DVD isn’t going anywhere anytime soon but that sure as hell don’t mean that there no place for BD. You can mark my words and bookmark this thread please; from now on every major day date release from studios will include a DVD version and a BD/HD DVD version.

Anyway, I’m off, you enjoy your chatting here. I truly hope you strike 50 posts per hour by tomorrow. Good luck to you.

[Coren]

Why are you here?

Are you here to discuss HD formats?

Why do you continue to spread false information about upconversion being something different than upconversion?

What proof, of any actual performance ratings do you have under Benchmark testing as to the quality?

What proof, of actual quality do you have regarding HD optical discs, of either format, when compared to this upconversion?

At what point do you think your opinion is actually more important than reality?

So, with Deadmeat's further posts in this thread giving you the answers to these questions, has he given enough proof of his purpose here to just perma-ban him yet?

[Grubert]

A relevant article just appeared on dvdfile:

Of Resolution, Bit Rates, And Scaling (http://www.dvdfile.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6497)

Most of it discusses low-bitrate HD, but there is one section discussion upscaled DVD vs native HD:


[...]
Are scaled DVDs “good enough?” And, are scaled DVDs equivalent to high definition? The clear and irrefutable answer is that they are not. Let me try to demonstrate as simply as possible.

Scalers, using various mathematical algorithms that vary in quality and effectiveness from manufacturer to manufacturer, will attempt to predict what the various 1080p pixels would have been if the original images were captured as HD; synthesized HD pixels are based on the values of the larger 480p pixels that surround them. To make clear the difficulty of synthesizing 1080p pixels, let’s look at one single 480p pixel and the 1080p pixels it contains.

http://www.dvdfile.com/images/stories/stills_jon/159x75_7/pixel_sizes.bmp

Horizontally, there are 2.67 1080p pixels for each 480p pixel and, vertically, there are 2.25 1080p pixels for each 480p pixel. Let’s round that off to 3 and 2. That’s pretty close; 2.67 x 2.25 = 6.0 and there are six times more 1080p pixels than there are 480p pixels in any 1.78:1 image.

http://www.dvdfile.com/images/stories/stills_jon/159x75_7/half_hor_2_by_3.bmp

Consider the edge of a black horizontal bar against a white background; let’s simplify further by assuming that the edge falls right on the boundary between two rows of 1080p pixels. This is how the 2 x 3 array of 1080p pixels (the area of one 480p pixel) would look, excluding the sharpness of the camera lens.

http://www.dvdfile.com/images/stories/stills_jon/159x75_7/gray_2_by_3.bmp

But since half the 480p pixel area is illuminated by white and the other half of its area by black, the 480p pixel simply reports a single 50% gray level (ignoring gamma). Now, the interesting thing is that no matter what the original object shape is, if the equivalent of three 1080p pixels are black and the other three are white, the 480p pixel reports the same 50% gray level. So all of the following shapes (which are resolvable in 1080p) will result on the same 480p single pixel gray color:

http://www.dvdfile.com/images/stories/stills_jon/159x75_7/half_hor_2_by_3.bmp http://www.dvdfile.com/images/stories/stills_jon/159x75_7/2_by_3_pattern1.bmp http://www.dvdfile.com/images/stories/stills_jon/159x75_7/2_by_3_pattern2.bmp http://www.dvdfile.com/images/stories/stills_jon/159x75_7/2_by_3_pattern3.bmp http://www.dvdfile.com/images/stories/stills_jon/159x75_7/2_by_3_pattern4.bmp http://www.dvdfile.com/images/stories/stills_jon/159x75_7/2_by_3_pattern5.bmp

This is highly simplified, of course. Objects are imaged at various angles; when that happens, the color of the pixel is a weighted average of illumination based on exposed area, but I digress. Here’s the big problem with scaling. Even with hints and indicators from adjacent 480p pixels, how do you mathematically decide which of those twenty possible shapes is correct. (There are actually many, many more combinations, but I’m limiting the discussion to very special cases for simplicity’s sake.) The reality is that you can’t. Scaling simply gives you a smooth representation of 480p resolution within the image space of 1080p. And, in fact, the scaled image can actually be a little softer than the original 480p image because the math can act as a modest low pass filter.

All this technobable aside, the bottom line is that you can’t get something for nothing. DVD’s 480p images contain a limited amount of information and you can’t reasonably expect that the six times greater visual information contained within a true high definition image can be deduced. So if anyone ever asserts that scaled DVD is as good as true high definition, feel free to suggest that that’s just a load of cow pies.

[stockstar1138]

So, with Deadmeat's further posts in this thread giving you the answers to these questions, has he given enough proof of his purpose here to just perma-ban him yet?

you got my vote for a perma-ban.

im comparing the first postvia ps3 on my 1080p tv, it is obvious what is the sup-upconversion, not supringly it lacks detail and im sure this shot was cherry picked, so this is the best it will get.

[zaphod]

After the Warner move, some people suggested that Blu-ray's was a 'Pyrrhic victory'. I'm beginning to understand what they meant. Most of the rabid redbots have fallen silent, but now blubottles have to put up with Deadmeat's crap! %-(

[Cap'n Neutrality]

That is not actually higher resolution - that is just blending of low resolution frames to simulate high resolution. It a false sense of reality.



I can see the marketing now:

"If you're the kind of guy that digs Pro-Logic II, you're going to love super-upconversion!"

:))

[BBM128]

Deadmeat gets pwned AGAIN. :)

[Deadmeat]

A relevant article just appeared on dvdfile:

Of Resolution, Bit Rates, And Scaling (http://www.dvdfile.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6497)

Most of it discusses low-bitrate HD, but there is one section discussion upscaled DVD vs native HD:
The Toshiba tech in question is real-time super-resolution, not upconversion.

It is unfortunate that Toshiba decided to call it super upconversion for marketing reasons.

[kulmbacher]

...
you can’t get something for nothing.
...
So if anyone ever asserts that scaled DVD is as good as true high definition, feel free to suggest that that’s just a load of cow pies.


Summed up nicely.

Up conversion or "super resolution" or whatever you want to call it can't begin to compare to the real thing. No NEW information can be created so it will always be a pale imitation.

End of story. I can't believe this thread is 12 pages.

[vinnie97]

Summed up nicely.

Up conversion or "super resolution" or whatever you want to call it can't begin to compare to the real thing. No NEW information can be created so it will always be a pale immitation.

End of story. I can't believe this thread is 12 pages.
5 if you maximize your control panel posts per page settings. ;) Deadmeat, the BD-J/profile situation with Blu-ray does suck but I certainly wouldn't prefer this pseudo upgrade (downgrade for those of us enjoying Blu-ray and HD DVD) over it.

[Deadmeat]

Summed up nicely.

Up conversion or "super resolution" or whatever you want to call it can't begin to compare to the real thing. No NEW information can be created so it will always be a pale imitation.
The "misplaced" information spanning several frames is gathered into single frame. This is the concept of super-upconverison.

[Grubert]

The Toshiba tech in question is real-time super-resolution, not upconversion.

It is unfortunate that Toshiba decided to call it super upconversion for marketing reasons.

Jesus H. Christ. Somebody gag me before I get banned.

[Deadmeat]

5 if you maximize your control panel posts per page settings. ;) Deadmeat, the BD-J/profile situation with Blu-ray does suck but I certainly wouldn't prefer this pseudo upgrade (downgrade for those of us enjoying Blu-ray and HD DVD) over it.
Well, I was speaking on the behalf of J6Ps, not videophiles who upgrade their players every year.

[snp]

Jesus H. Christ. Somebody gag me before I get banned.

lol. Deadmeat just popped up with this in another thread i was chatting in, as well. He's nothing, if not persistent:)

[Cap'n Neutrality]

Well, I was speaking on the behalf of J6Ps, not videophiles who upgrade their players every year.


It would actually benefit you to not try and speak on anyone's behalf but your own....

Adding your voice to the "collective J6P" seriously downgrades the bell-curve. :rolleyes:

[kulmbacher]

The "misplaced" information spanning several frames is gathered into single frame. This is the concept of super-upconverison.

Still, no NEW information can be created. Errors will abound. This may be a great new technique for upconversion, but still it will never compare to the real thing.

The only way to know if it is any good is to compare it to the HD DVD (or Blu-ray) version of the same thing!

[ccphilly1984]

lol. Deadmeat just popped up with this in another thread i was chatting in, as well. He's nothing, if not persistent:)

HEY DEADMEAT IS FUN AS HELL! DEADMEAT FOR PRESIDENT:D!

he's an HD DVD supproter's version of bil hunt... lol

[bt12483]

Well, I was speaking on the behalf of J6Ps, not videophiles who upgrade their players every year.

then you should have applied it to both HD DVD and bluray, as opposed to presenting it as a bluray substitute, since the technology would be used by the socalled j6p in regards to both formats. you act as if this techonology only impacts bluray, when hddvd would be equally affected.

[ack_bak]

Jesus H. Christ. Somebody gag me before I get banned.

Just put him on ignore...

[Fettastic]

since they require people to have 35+ inch 1080 TV sets to even be relevent
This is not true. My friend has a 32" HDTV and both BD and HD DVD look beautiful on it, FAAAR better than DVD.

[g.k.]

he's an HD DVD supproter's version of bil hunt... lol

Uh... no.

He's just a run of the mill Sony hater.

[kulmbacher]

you act as if this techonology only impacts bluray, when hddvd would be equally affected.

I'm not sure he understands this part.

Is he advocating the death of HD in general?

[Grubert]

Looking at the first post...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=975151


Thread on AVS gets six posts (four of them by the OP). General reaction: indifference


Thread on highdefdigest gets a dozen pages. :rolleyes:

[vinnie97]

This is not true. My friend has a 32" HDTV and both BD and HD DVD look beautiful on it, FAAAR better than DVD.
Yes, Dorothy, the difference between 480p and 720p is indeed like night and day.%-(

[ack_bak]

Looking at the first post...



Thread on AVS gets six posts (four of them by the OP). General reaction: indifference


Thread on highdefdigest gets a dozen pages. :rolleyes:

Yes and the OP at AVS downloaded a program which is supposed to mirror "super upconversion" that Toshiba is offering and walked away unimpressed. This appears to be nothing more than a marketing ploy by Toshiba. I would love to see super upconversion tests run by a third party side by side with upconverted DVD on a Samsung BD-P1200 or XA2 and then against Blu-Ray and HD DVD. I would suspect the difference would be very noticeable. Even to J6P...

[bt12483]

I'm not sure he understands this part.

Is he advocating the death of HD in general?

i honestly cant tell sometimes. one minute he is pro HD DVD and then he goes on this super upconversion bit which negates both HDM formats (even though he tries to only apply it to bluray). so frustrating...

[HiDefFanboy]

Was the demo material at CES MPEG2 compressed or was it off SD tape? Cos the way I see it, MPEG2 compressed material is itself already using the technique Deadmeat is excited about just to reproduce at 480i. A second of material coming from a dvd is not a series of 30 discrete frames but 30 frames with any non changing detail thrown away. So if this tech looks 4 frames either way at MPEG2 material it's unlikely to find much additional information. That's just to get to 480i and that's just on high bitrate, static material. Put one of the action sequences from Bourne or The Kingdom through it and compare the result to the HD-DVD. Any punter who can't see the difference will just stick to SD anyway.

Very good point Littlealex,
This technology would probably work much better on VHS :p than DVD because of the lossy codecs used on DVD. Even worse for HD codecs such as VC-1.

Just think of it - 'With Toshiba's Super-Up-Conversion (SUC) your VHS tapes could look as good as DVD!' They could sell so many more VHS machines. :rolleyes:

[vinnie97]

...'With Toshiba's Super-Up-Conversion (SUC)...
This had me LOLing.

[Grubert]

i honestly cant tell sometimes. one minute he is pro HD DVD and then he goes on this super upconversion bit which negates both HDM formats (even though he tries to only apply it to bluray). so frustrating...

The MO is latching on to any anti-Sony talking point that might stick at a given time. Simple as that.

[Badger3920]

Most people can't tell the difference, hence no need for Blu-Ray.

You can't tell the difference between a good argument and a bad one. Hence, no need for you.

Get out of the hi def forums with your "standard is good enough" bs.

[vinnie97]

I hate Sony as much as the next person but FFS at this concoction.:))

[Badger3920]

Yes and the OP at AVS downloaded a program which is supposed to mirror "super upconversion" that Toshiba is offering and walked away unimpressed. This appears to be nothing more than a marketing ploy by Toshiba. I would love to see super upconversion tests run by a third party side by side with upconverted DVD on a Samsung BD-P1200 or XA2 and then against Blu-Ray and HD DVD. I would suspect the difference would be very noticeable. Even to J6P...

I SUSPECT IT WOULD BE LAUGHABLE.

I can't believe this clown is allowed to litter our forums with a mudslide of anti-hd topics everyday.

[steaky]

$100 these machines will cost the same as a BD player.

[toon12]

i think it's much more simple than that; he's a paid troll.

that is absurd. unless of course he is paid by Sony to discredit Toshiba...hey, I may have hit on something here!!! <:-|

[Grubert]

Deadmeat
Banned

mmphh... mmmphh...

[steaky]

Ive always laughed at the irony of that username.

[stockstar1138]

mmphh... mmmphh...

thank god.

[Ace_of_Sevens]

There are plenty of newer techs that failed to replace the older ones, such as LD, SACD, Super-VHS, D-VHS, and UMD. Blu-Ray's failure to replace DVD wouldn't be the first, nor the last, example of that.

I'd say LD replaced home projection of 8 mm quite nicely. Or do you not even know what order these things came in?

[HiDefFanboy]

Hey, I was hoping this thread had not died yet, as I have heard jucy rumors from unreliable sources that Toshiba will be promoting the new Super Up Converting capabilities (SUC).

Personally, if this is true, as a Blu-ray supporter I am ready to concede... Incredible Toshiba dvd - Super Up Conversion - Think about it - this could be the future - IT'd SUC :eek:

The best part is the new tagline to replace "HD DVD - the look and sound of Perfect"

It will be "Toshiba: We Do SUC" :cool:

[Coolpplse]

Front 4 frames and back 4 frames.

lol I wonder what happens to incorrectly 3:2 Pulldown flagged movies here

[ElektronikSupersonik]

duplicate post owns me

[ElektronikSupersonik]

Toshiba really turned Blu-ray death blow around on Blu if the tech does what it's expected to do.

yea great. So the next gen dvd format will allow us to watch movies in 960p? wow, really looking forward to that. :rolleyes:

[SRW1000]

It's too bad that this topic has been derailed, since super-resolution does sound like an interesting solution to the thousands of DVDs that may never see an HD release.

Here's an excerpt from Clint DeBoer's take on it from Audioholics (Sorry, can't post urls yet, so you'll have to add the www yourself: audioholics.com/education/display-formats-technology/toshiba-cell-broadband-video-processor):


It's always been said by us that you cannot take standard definition, upconvert it to HD and expect the same results as if you had an actual HD source. With that said, the cell processor technique demoed by Toshiba - in real-time so as to not be mistaken for a parlor trick - came pretty darn close. Detail popped and edges cleared up without the typical artifacts you'd expect. We did notice some jaggy artifacts on some of the material, but overall this is a technology that is extremely promising. We're hoping it debuts sometime by 2009, but there was no specific release information given from Toshiba on the official timeline.

The article also has a few pictures showing the result of the processing.

Could this replace HD? No, but it could certainly be used as a selling feature for new HD DVD or Blu-ray players in the future.

Scott

[cheet]

It's too bad that this topic has been derailed, since super-resolution does sound like an interesting solution to the thousands of DVDs that may never see an HD release.

indeed... any solution to improve the quality of upscaled SD material on fixed pixel displays is welcomed by me

there are still hundreds of new release movies that are only being released on DVD and literally thousands of back cat titles that will never see a blu-ray release... personally i cant live by a steady diet of hollywood blockbusters on blu-ray alone, i love to watch all the indie and foreign language movies as well most of which only come out on dvd

i don't see this as a competitor to blu-ray i see this as a way to make my dvd collection (which is still growing) look better on a fixed pixel display

blu-ray is fantastic but im not going to snob films because they aren't available in HD :confused:

[EL_BOMBASTICO]

Necrobumpers should be banned!

[bruceames]

Necrobumpers should be banned!

lol, try reading the rules of what constitutes a necrobump before getting exited.

Any post, that is made in a 'dead thread' (a thread that has gone without a new post for 1 month or more), with the intent of starting the arguement up again, will receive an infraction.